Reason: It’s much better to mix these Pheromones for your own mixes without the very strong parfume scent.
Question1: How does Androtics dilute their pheromones (I guess “Dipropylene Glycol”) ?
Question 2: How to dilute the ExperiMones (they have their own Fragrance)?
Addition to question 2: According to Androtics, it is highly UN-Recommended to purchase the unfragranced version. Any advice what to do?
DPG is good, but only if you want all oils (think A314).
Normal dilution is done with Perfumers Alcohol, though a mixture of PA:DPG at 9:1 is ok and will help extend the effects of a particular molecule.
It would be a tough task to dilute your own full time with PA bc of the restrictions on sale to individuals, though.
Excalibur, there are several websites where you can purchase perfumers alcohol. Just Google it. You can buy up to 5 gallons of it annually without having to have a license, which is way more than you would use to dilute your pheros. It is a tricky business though if you dont know what you are doing, or dont have the right tools to measure them. I personally dilute certain pheros to test them at different levels, but mostly just the putatives or single molecules. The mixes from AD are finely tuned and you may mess up the diffusion by tinkering with them.
That all being said, you bought them, so if you want to play around with them, knock yourself out.
I like to place an order right now, but I still have NO informations that I need.
My questions might be difficult to understand, because I made a mistake.
Question 1: What kind of liquid is Androtics using to dilute a Putative with 10000 mcg/spray to 10 mcg/spray (1:1000 ratio) ?
I would like to know what exact liquid Androtics uses for dilution, because I want to use the same liquid that Androtics uses.
CelticPrince, as you do, I want to dilute certain pheros to test them at different levels, too. Putatives and Experimones, too.
I will not change Androtics well suited mixes, the MX-series.
I will not change Androtics well suited Instant line.
Yes, I totallly agree with you: AD’s MX-series and the Instant line are finely tuned and I don’t mess up the diffusion by tinkering with them.
But I do something different: I want to put some “Putatives and ExperiMones” together for my own personal mix by only using the ExperiMones and Putative, as I described in the first post (no MX or Instant line).
Question 2: How to dilute the ExperiMones (Experimone = TAH,TAL,TAC,TAF) ?
According to Androtics, it’s highly UN-Recommended to purchase the unfragranced version. Due to this WARNING, I am very insecure. Question 3: What will happen, when I purchase the unfragranced version of i.e. TAC and I mix with DPG or Parfumers alcohol ? What will happed? What are the negative effects they are WARNING ?
You do realise that overthinking is very often highly detrimental to phero use?
1 - As far as I understand, it is bog-standard SD-40 Alcohol, otherwise known as Perfumers Alcohol. You don’t have a great problem getting this in most places. Fixative in most cases is DPG - plenty of past discussion on just this here. Generally a few drops is enough but you may need more for the faster diffusing molecules. You can buy both in the store under the Supplies Tab.
You do realise these very high concentrations are largely academic. The only practical uses are for serious mixers producing in fairly substantial batches or commercial/lab use. An individual wearing them is a highly impractical prospect.
Sometimes it is simply easier to buy the stuff at your chosen dilution. Unless you are set-up with research grade pipetting tools, diluting small quantities for exact and repeatable dosing can be a right pain in the arse. It is worth paying a bit extra for someone else with better facilities to do it right.
2- See 1. AFAIK its exactly the same stuff. Sometimes the DPG/fixative residue visible on the skin for a particular MX indicates they may use a bit more in some MX’s compared to others but that all depends on the formula we don’t know, so again its a judgement call, not something you can easily quantify.
3 - No negative effects as such. Its simply that in the vast majority of cases it simply won’t work. The pheros won’t diffuse away from your skin so well or so predictably and when they do, they will stay closer to you - which usually only means you need a much higher dose and more restricted environment to get similar effects to scented.
Unscented is also prone to turning to stink a lot more easily than scented.
TOPIC: DILUTION
thank you a lot for your reply. What exactly can I understand by “Fixative”?
What do you recommend me for diluting the Putatives?
Option a) Should I use parfumers alcohol, only?
Option b) Should I use parfumers DPG, only?
Option c) Should I use parfumers alcohol and DPG, together?
IfOption c is the right choice: What ratio of parfumers alcohol and DPG should be used ??
I still want to do my own mixes, I want to do it by myself. Because I want to put ONLY 1-2 sprays (instead of 6 sprays) on me to avoid the very strong fragrance smell.
For this reason I want to purchase HIGHER CONCENTRATED peromone bottles.
When I read all these posts, I have realized, that nobody understands my concern.
You might understand my concern by providing you an example:
Some pheromone users might wear the following mix:
2 sprays of P74 (25 mcg) - TOTAL 50 mcg
1 spray of P83 (25 mcg) - TOTAL 25 mcg
OVERALL TOTAL 75 mcg pheromones and 3 sprays fragrance
What will happen using slightly less P74 (1.4 sprays instead of 2 sprays)?
Your recommendation might be: Purchasing the 5 mcg/spray bottle
because it’s forbidden to dilute or mix ??
To have the desired pheromone concentration well dosed, we will use 5 mcg/spray
7 sprays of P74 (5 mcg) - TOTAL 35 mcg
5 sprays of P74 (5 mcg) - TOTAL 25 mcg
OVERALL TOTAL 65 mcg pheromones and 12 sprays fragrance
Have you ever smelled somebody using to much parfum or cologne ???
Use 5 mcg / spray for dosing pheromones without risk, but you will stink, because you are using too much fragrance.
AGAIN: I want to do my own mixes by purchasing higher concentrated pheromones.
No I don’t have a chemical laboratory in my room, but a slight variation (3%) of pheromones does not do the big difference. I do not care for a slight variation.
TOPIC: UN-FRAGRANCED
I plan to purchase the “highly UN-Recommended” unfragranced version.
Reason A: because nobody describes the risks. Probably there warnings are for marketing reasons and the are indeed no risks. Just a guess.
Reason B: When wearing 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 different types of pheromones (which usually have a differend fragrance) I do not want to have a mix of neroli, f21, f22, f23, akuto, grapefruit on my skin.
I prefer Akuto, only. But there is no Akuto fragrance in the Putatives and Experimones.
And yes, I have read all your warnings. According to your recommendation, I should
spent ten thousands of dollars to get Putatives in differend sizes,concentrations,fragrances
RATHER THAN
mixing or diluting Androtics Putatives or Pheromones.
I am mad, because you just do not (or don’t want to) understand my concern.
I just like to know how to professional dilute pheromones with parfumers alcohol and/or DPG.
How to fix them with DPG. What do I need ?
Anyway answering your question: perfumers’ alcohol applies to scents that have absolutely NO pheros (or I prefer to call 'em as mones instead) in them, because the chemical polymers would be slightly altered and cause the pheros to be less effective. Depending on the concentration, some would even render the pheros useless.
As for Option C, why would you even want to put BOTH with pheros, where you’d get a lesser-efficient phero upon mixing these solutions together with your pheros?
And from my past experience, higher concentrations of pheros do not produce more efficiency in achieving desired results as the effects cause more harm than delight; therefore, highly-concentrated pheros actually JEOPARDIZES your chances of obtaining the main purpose of wearing pheros.
Either way, you are welcomed to test the drawbacks and ugly side of wrongly-mixing these biochemical concoctions.
Strongly suggests to me that you are overthinking and have missed the basics and relationship between scent, strength and dilution, right across the entire range. Never mind that you don’t even understand what the basic dilutents are and what you use them for.
Until you have grasped that, don’t even think on diluting/remixing anything because you will likely waste the lot - which is an expensive mistake!
Read some more - there are some excellent threads on the basics of mixing in here that will teach you a great deal.
Start with this thread - Which has a lot of valuable advice on putting together mixes by layering:
Scent is no great issue for Ps and Experimones because they come in a light (6%) scent unless you specify something else, MXs mainly come in 6% as well - So long as you give it some time for the initial dry down, you can handle a load of sprays of these in a single mix of a few products.
Another point worth thinking-on is that a little more time spent reading and working with the consumer products will get you RU-Status, which will bring the costs of your experimental molecules down considerably.
If you do want to get into the basics of diluting and mixing, I’d strongly suggest you get one or two mones at a reasonable concentration - P75 at 10-20mcg and/or TAA/Alphanol at around 50mcg, a couple of 30mls of 6% scented PA and a bottle of unscented DPG plus a few pipettes, empty togos and set to work trying different dilutions and fixative quantities, using the threads here as a guide. - you will get straightforward, reproducible results and you will get a good handle on calculating the dosages for other mones.
There are very good reasons why - Using DPG as a fixative for pheros dissolved in SD40 is part of the reason IS lasts twice as long on the skin compared to TAA alone. Or that IO lasts a lot longer than straight Alphanol. But where a mix is concerned, you do need a bit of trial and error to get it right as slowing-down the fast-diffusing molecules can run the risk of further hampering any slower-diffusing molecules in the mix, so dose/proportion may need adjusted to compensate.
This is often where layering and spreading the mix around your different app points will do just as well and with so-much less hassle as trying to combine them all in one bottle.
Quite a lot are already answered very well in here - or that there is no simple answer because they depend on individual molecules and what they are being paired with.
I didn’t answer this part earlier on because I was at work, focused only one part of your post. Well, unfragranced version is UNRECOMMENDED because for beginners who might accidentally OD on the mones – it’ll give out a “stay-away-from-me” vibe to the opposite sex since it would be stinking WORSE than scented version.
In fact, not only to the opposite sex – but also to the homo sapiens sapiens in general (all sexes) would find it offensive and will evade you like a plague unless a few of them who might be weird people that can withstand strong phero odours.
P/S: We hardly know each other, so it is best to avoid being too condescending in wording your requests (e.g.: “I am mad”, etc.) because, to be honest, it is a turn-off for people to properly answer your queries because of the aggravated tone in your post. Just my piece of two cents, nothing personal, man.
Dear Nali, I will be glad if you do not sabotage my tread.
Angry or mad, I did not know that there is a difference.
Back to topic:
I might have a totally wrong view about how important the factors fragrance and difussion time are.
For a better understanding I would like you to answer my following questions:
Some users in this forum recommend using 1 spray P75 at 5 mcg + 1 spray P83 at 25 mcg.
Other people would buy (as recommended):
Bottle A (5ml):
P75 5mcg/spray
5ml bottle = 40 sprays = 0,0125ml/spray
each 1ml has 40mcg pheromone
Bottle B (5ml):
P83 25mcg/spray
5ml bottle = 40 sprays = 0,0625ml/spray
each 1ml has 200mcg pheromone
One spray of bottle A and one spray of bottle B matches the recommendation (see above)
I would buy “higher concentrations”:
Bottle C (5ml):
P75 50mcg/spray
5ml bottle = 40 sprays = 0,125ml/spray
each 1ml has 400mcg pheromone
Bottle D (5ml):
P83 50mcg/spray
5ml bottle = 40 sprays = 0,125ml/spray
each 1ml has 400mcg pheromone
To create my own mix I would pour 0,5ml of bottle C and 2,5ml of bottle D into bottle Z:
Bottle Z (5ml) contains:
0,5ml of Bottle A (40mcg of P75) + 2,5 ml of bottle B (200mcg of P83) + 2,0ml DPG (for dilution)
Two sprays of bottle Z contain: P75 at 5 mcg + P83 at 25 mcg (that is the exact concentration using 1 spray of bottle A and 1 spray of bottle B).
SD40B alcohol: perfumers grade - 90%
Dipropylene glycol (DPG) - 10%
This is used for Experimones, P’s, and some MX’s
There is “stealth Diffusion” additive in some commercial-line and possibly some MX’s, but I’m not exactly sure. You will notice there is a different feel at the app point.
Neroli has “mood-lifting” properties, ie. antidepressant. Neroli is “diffusion technology”, but for what effect? It has been described as causing molecules that are at opposite ends of the volatility spectrum to diffuse at something closer to the same speed. For example, if you want to put TAA (diffuses most rapidly) and eNone (can stick to you for days) in the same mix. I’m no chemist, but I do know Neroli is also commonly found in household cleaning products - great for making positive associations with something that otherwise smells like weird chemicals. Additionally, it may or may not actually help clean things.
My current understanding is that molecules which are fickle diffusers, you get better results by diluting down to very low concentration in PA, and doing a lot of sprays. Some molecules are more attracted to eachother than others - and that gravitation attraction diminishes greatly if you can get the molecules far enough apart in the solution.
Neroli does not work well with every molecule - some fickle diffusers, it may cause issues which dilluting will help correct. On the other hand, some molecules don’t smell great without a scent to cover. And if you are layering multiple molecules, I believe it may help them diffuse at a closer speed. The amount of scent needed, with regard to the concentration - I’ve no idea, except that equivalent to 20% is reaching full-cologne strength, though neroli quickly dries down in scent anyhow. You can expect dilluting a scented concentrate, and using multiple sprays, to improve diffusion in probably every example. Though you may sacrifice some longevity, you can compensate by spraying more frequently.
You might get some comments that you smell like cheese, or something else “not so fresh”. The diffusion characteristics may be different, and effects may be different, at a given dilution vs. the scented version. Even using different scents at the same dilution, you will see different effects, different diffusion patterns. I can see that AD would like to sell scented products in the commercial line, hence they most value data on P’s that are in scented solution. This is probably why the discount is for scented rather than unscented. Chirality (mirror image) of the same molecule can be either harsh and musky, or sweet and fruity. Or one can have a powerful odor, and the other no odor at all. You may also find that layering one molecule over another makes the scent disappear, or change.
Many of the molecules diffuse very poorly at high concentration - they stick together, stick to the skin. By spreading them out sufficiently they loose gravitational pull for one-another, and hence they can diffuse well.
DPG - helps “fix” the solute to your skin for a longer period of time. But this is not necessarily true in all cases I don’t know to what extent that could be counter-productive in some cases as well. You will need to experiment and see for yourself.
By the way A314 oil is also designed so that you can dilute it with PA. Either in a bottle, or on your skin.
Whenever you open a bottle, you present the risk of contaminating the solution, and there is the risk of cross-contamination. This can spoil your product. The safest way is to NOT open the container, but rather to just spray into another container. You can calculate how much solution per spray. If you do open it, I recommend latex gloves, mask, do it in well-ventilated area, use 1 ml syringes, and use separate syringes for each solution you add to avoid cross-contaminating them.
I would not really recommend ordering the to-gos internationally due to the fact that they tend to leak a lot when planes are at high altitude, so think about how long your plane is going to be up in the air from the US. The 30 ml bottles don’t ever seem to leak.
lwatkins, thank you for the insights, really helpful.
There are still some factors I don’t really understand. I please you to answer my questions for a better understanding.
According to you, Androtics self-decides or recommends a specific fragrance (F22 in Ammo, Neroli in Putatives).
I doubt, that it is congruent to wear multiple fragrances. How to solve this issue wearing Ammo and a Putative at the same time?
What is difussing faster on the human skin (%) ?
1 spray 50 mcg or
5 sprays 10 mcg
Since everybody recommends to not purchase high concentrate pheromones and I still don’t understand your point of view:
I like to purchase the “100 mcg/spray glass” bottle of a Putative and dilute it with perfumers alcohol + Dipropylene glycol (ratio 1:4).
Result: concentration 25 mcg/spray.
Does my dilution of 25 mcg/spray differ from Androtics dilution of 25 mcg/spray? If yes, why (same question as in post number 14)?
Try to get the perfumer’s alcohol from Androtics. So, if you dilute A314 oil in perfumer’s, it will be real intense though. There are two kinds of experimenters: people designing new wicks for oil lamps and those inventing electric light. Have you bought any lamp wicks recently?
Yes, I know they’ve used the standard DPG/Neroli 6% putative fragrance package for ages. I live in Florida. I’ve found certain putatives fail in the standard packages. Diluting stuff in just straight PA without any added fragrance or DPG doesn’t seem to make any negative effect, except slightly less longevity.
Commercial fragrance under spray (dried) = doesn’t matter. Dried fragrance under A314 oil = doesn’t matter. Alcohol spray over oil = turns DPG into emulsion = does matter.
The solvent alcohol tends to emulsify and mix with the DPG. I don’t know how miscible they are, but you get the idea. DPG is miscible with water and ethanol soluble, which gives you more consistent results with near pure PA.
Until recently, some stuff (TAF) only came as 12.5 mcg by default. I diluted it often and never found a problem.
Caveat: TAA/Shine I would probably not dilute. Before 2014, you could only get TAL and others at 12.5 mcg. I diluted mine to usually 2.5. 1 mL of pheromone in standard neroli to 4 mL plain PA that they sell in the store. I can’t be the only human to have done so?
Some of the mones do smell bad and you won’t want 50 mcg unfragranced. You also want something besides thermal diffusion by body heat. Pairing the mones with the diffuse fragrance helps the physics a bit. There’s a huge difference between no frag. and diluted frag. Huge difference.
You want dancing, airborne phero molecules dancing in pairs with fragrance. Lots of wonderful math and physics on Wikipedia under Diffusion if you’d like.
I personally think that 5 sprays of 5 mcg = better than 1 spray 25 mcg. Same moles of mones. Same mcg. Greater surface area. You have a large surface vs. a point source. Thus, if you spread 8 ounces water finely over a large area, it should evaporate faster than if left in a glass. Some physics whiz can school me on this. Or do some kitchen science.
I agree with the major points from Watkins and the other people familiar with this topic. I can’t say there is a wrong or right. I think I get the OP’s goal.
You get: P83 30 mL 50 mcg per spray neroli. Also P75 the same way. You want 10 mcg per spray. I’d stick with a 1/5 dilution.
Spray 1 mL of product into an empty TOGO. Spray in 4 mL of PA into same. You will have each a TOGO at 10 mcg per spray. The results will be satisfactory. It need not be more complex. However, your fragrance and DPG will be 1/5 their orginal concentration ratio of solute per mL solvent. The sprays from Androtics have the same percent DPG and fragrance at 2.5 mcg as at 250.
