I’d prefer him to make the first move!

Field Reports & Anecdotal Experience Men's Pheromone Advice & Field Reports
21

I have a disinflating approach anxiety.
I’m currently following one of David DeAngelo’s methods:
“What could I gain from approaching this woman”
Working on the basis that if you ask your mind a question it will immediately throw up some answers.

To many people think to themselves when they’re thinking of approaching a woman: “Gee, what could go wrong, what have I got to lose?” and immediately when the question is asked 50 million possibilities are thrown up, enacting our survival mechanism - i.e if we’ve faced rejection before that experience is brought to mind as one of the things that could go wrong - (Same mechanism used when determining whether it’s safe to do something - mind automatically looks for past experiences of similar natures and their outcomes)

So by asking: “What could go right” you will eventually start to look towards all the things you could possibly gain by approaching that hot babe 8 sitting across the bar from you - Sex, sex, sex, social status, high fives from your AFC pals, sex, sex, sex, you get the picture! When you weigh up the odds logically like this again and again and again you’re creating the right mind threads - if you can make it the strongest route then one will be able to see that the gains to be had by success far outweigh the losses to be had by rejection. Of course we’re all going to get rejected from time to time, until we can calibrate our game to such a level as Style or Mystery, it’s just a fact of life… So AFC’s like me should definatly take their advice when they say: “Approach approach approach” Play the game simply to calibrate and enjoy the game, forget about trying to score or number close or any of that - the less you try for that, the less nervous you’ll be and ultimately, the easier it will be for you to score.

Here’s a little fact or two I like to remind myself of from time to time…

1: There are roughly 3 Billion women on this earth
2: Women fit the standard ‘bell curve’ graph nicely, that is to say - roughly half of those 3 billion women would rank 5 and above on the dickter scale
3: That’s at least 1 BILLION women who it would be possible to have sex with

Put’s thing in perspective a little doesn’t it :wink:
Oh, and don’t forget the man-drought - A good man is supposedly hard to find these days, so step your game up because there’s an ocean of women out there just dying for a real man.

But I have no doubt i’m preaching to the converted here hehehe - So I guess this post is more for my subconscious mind’s benefit than for you guys :stuck_out_tongue:
Cheers
J

22

It’s a great post Special K. Rep points for putting yourself on the wire

23

When I was shyer I practiced approaching women I didn’t know or didn’t like much. I don’t mean they were ugly or creepy, but merely women I had no emotional investment in. I used to walk up and down Oahu’s beaches and hook up with tourist women. I also hit on tourist women in the bar I played in. It’s really easy to strike up a conversation and put the moves on a stranger or casual acquaintance. You have nothing to lose and even if nothing comes of it you get to sharpen your interpersonal skills. Heck often you even make a new friend albeit not a lover. I probably had a 10% success rate and a really good suntan.

What’s difficult is to approach someone you’ve already developed feelings for. Perhaps a classmate or coworker you’ve worked with for months and grown fond of, even–cringe–fallen in love with. The stakes are much higher and subsequently fear of failure can be paralyzing. You could destroy the growing friendship, make things awkward or gain a love. Of course she might reject you and pretend nothing happened and go on with your professional relationship, but such is often not the case. Recently in my case it turned out the feelings were mutual and she thought I’d never make a move, but you have to be careful in professional environments as legal entanglements and worse may result when such relationships go south.

24

It is always easier to approach a girl you don’t know, especially when it is one you have no intention on pursuing any follow-up activities with, whether it be an LTR or a quickie in the bathroom stall of the bar you just walked into. If you are not really attracted to her to begin with, then you know you have nothing to lose - not in the next five minutes, not in the next five years. It’s absolute. Easy. Approach her. Talk to her. If she turns out be the dud that your attraction instincts told you to to expect, then you can erase her out of the rest of your life. Done and over with. No emotion lost, you break even. You’re made of Teflon.

Yet, that’s what all women expect from us, whether it’s the skank in the bar, or the girl next door. If we make it clear that we’ve made an investment, then they crucify us in the cruelest of ways. If we act like we don’t give a damn, then it works better. I don’t know why. I figure, that is one of the ultimate mysteries of women. I don’t know if it gives them a sense of control over the situation, like they have the final go/no-go decision.

The paradox is, of course, that in a situation where you have just even an inkling of attraction for a certain girl, then you really do give a damn. If you see a girl you don’t know, but want to bang the sh!t out of her and then never call her again, to approach her, you have to make an emotional (and time) investment - albeit a small one - to get that return; you may not care as much if it doesn’t work out, but you do care a little (somehow, your ego gets a little bruised). If you find yourself falling for the girl you work with, or the girl next door, then to win her over, you also have to make an investment, perhaps even at the expense of other opportunities - a much more costlier one if you lose. This is where most men, myself definitely included, end up acting like incapable idiots, maybe even wimps. If you’re not careful, you’ll cross some line that will give her too much control, and she will walk all over you, confirming her original suspicions that you were not mate material to begin with. Some other girl may think you are a god, but she thinks of you as a friend (which on the potential mate scale, is rated lower than the bum on the street). She’s probably not doing it on purpose, but naturally and subconsciously following what her instincts are telling her to do.

I’m definitely not saying that these situations are impossible. You see them working out for other people every day. You just have to be a much more skilled player, in a game that really isn’t a game to you, but something more serious. It’s definitely a more advanced and intense battlefield, and one that most men are not used to fighting in every day. I’ve been there before, and I’d say I lost each time. Hell, I’m in it right now. I went out on a blind date last weekend, and I approached another random girl the other night, setting it up for another time to meet. No problem. Small investments. Still something to lose, but not a whole lot. Yet, I’ve recently developed a crush on someone I’ve known for a very long time, and I find myself analyzing my every word and every move, including what effing pheros I’m going to where around her this time and then next time. In fact, it’s that whole situation that got me introduced to pheros. We do it so naturally when we don’t know the girl. We don’t think. Instinct takes over.

When it’s “that one girl”, I think the key is to hint at your attraction without announcing it in the open. Maybe it gives her a chance to choose to play or not play the game, rather than being forced into it. You have to build and foster the attraction from there: curb yours, but encourage hers. You’re not just a member in the orchestra anymore, you’re the f#cking conductor. Tougher game.

Don’t ask me how to play it. I’ve been trying to figure it out for years.

I wonder what the women in the forum have to say about this…

PS: sorry for the lengthy posts… I get carried away sometimes.

25

You really wanna know LOL :wink:

Girls are just as nervous as you are some just hide it better. When they see a guy they are or could be interested in most of them have all the same feelings guys have. What if he dosnt like me, What if he thinks I am a 5, What if he hates my shoes LOL What if I cant think of anything to say to him, What if I say something stupid.

Now if they see you approuching and there is no attraction they could be thinking “Oh god no dont let him be coming to talk to me”

I am not talking about the skanks that are just looking to find a guy with money or to treat like shit. Or girls just looking to fool around and get laid. Yes men there are some girls who just want sex. :smiley: I am talking about normal everyday girls. Dosnt matter if they are a 10 or a 1 on your guys boinking scale.

Depending on a girls personality and confidence, I agree that if you act like it dosnt matter to you one way or the other. Some girls will be more interested. Its sort of like a challange*. Hey why isnt he interested in me*. But for a girl with low self esteem or a shy nervous girl it comes off as I knew he wouldnt like me.

The hard part for a guy is knowing which girl is which. Its important to observe them before you consider approuching. The manner in which they will conduct themselfs will give you the answer. I think alot of Alpha males sense this naturally and it makes it easier for them. If you know this then you will know the best way to approuch. I think to many guys think with there johnson and just skip this step. Observe your target, not to see if she is hot but to see how she interacts with those around her. This comes natural to girls we do it automatic.

I dont agree with this. Being a friend first is not the kiss of death. My husband was my friend for years before we got together. I have known him since I was 14 years old. Friends make the best mates. You dont have to like a person to screw them. (sorry so blunt LOL) But to a girl it dosnt matter how hot you are. If you stink at being a friend to her then you are not good mate potential. I think it is important however that right from the get go, if you think you may want to be more then friends to create a little sexual tension in a friendship. It signals that the potential is always there.

Hun thats the fun part. Its what makes “the game” a game. Its the dance I spoke about earlier that we all having been dancing for centuries. Think of how crappy and unexciting it would be if on the day you were born your mate was picked for you. Even if she grew up to be a total hotty. It wouldnt really be all that exciting would it. Maybe the “first time” would be but after that thoughts would creep in. she is only here because she was chosen for me.

Ahh but when you dance the dance, its scary and exhilarating. It arouses you and gets your blood flowing. You may get your toes stepped on and you may step on a few but the practice just makes you a better dancer. Then suddenly there she is your perfect dance partner. The one who moves perfectly to your lead. The one who wasnt chosen for you but who chose you over all others

OOKayy enough romantic crap, forgot I was in the mens section :smiley:

Not a tougher game, it is “the game”. While you are doing the above, so are the girls. building and curbing. Keep that in mind next time your out there all nervous. Find a partner and take the lead and if it dosnt work out at least you danced and will dance again :wink:

Jesus what the hell pheromone did I put on this morning. snort LOL

26

I have to strongly disagree here. That’s a one size fits all approach and will serve you poorly in real life. Have I met women as you stereotyped? Yes, but they tended to be young and immature, and I’d delete them from my directory in 2 thumb flicks. Life is too short to bother with said games. Sometimes it’s more of a cat 'n mouse game as they’re dealing with the same fears as the man, and they’ve been hurt before and wanta be sure you’re not the same ass all over again. And I’d expect her to check me out carefully before getting serious. At least I’d know she’s picky about whom she tangos with.

I tend to pursue women that are more straight-up art fart types, so we’re on the same wavelength. I like it comfortable from the beginning. The point is, there’s a lotta diversity out there and you gotta go with the flow. Don’t limit your thinking to stereotypes or you’ll lose big when the love of your life walks by and you crap on her. And if you think of your love-life as a battlefield or game I’d say you missed the point long ago. It ain’t something you can normally fight for, earn or force. It’s something that just happens between two people whether you want it or not.

Incidentally, most of my GFs and wife were my friends before we were intimate. I’m picky about my women and want to know them well before getting deeply involved. Lifestyle, education and common interests are just as important as chemistry or appearance. Friendship makes the relationship all that much richer. The only downside is she usually doesn’t want to remain friends after a breakup. Oddly I still hang out with my ex-wife.

27

Must’ve been Instant Honesty! - but that’s what I was asking for when I asked what the girls here had to say! - I (and I’m sure a lot of the guys here) would certainly appreciate your incite.

It is a tougher game. It may be “the game”, but it’s not the same game as meeting someone at random and making a move. It’s the one you really, really do care about not messing up. Making the first move is important, but making the right moves all the time is even more important. Again, easier to do when you just meet the person, tougher when you’ve known her forever.

This is correct. It is definitely fun and exhilirating, even more so than when it is someone new. But it is scary and nerve-racking as hell at the same time! It goes back to the same question, though: if you suddenly realize that she is the dance partner you were waiting to ask to dance all this time, but never knew it, how do you get her to choose you over all the others without freaking her out?

So this is what I was talking about. Not the girl you don’t know that you approach. That’s easy. What I’m talking about is the one. The one you’ve known for a while, that suddenly you wake up and say, “holy sh!t, she’s what I’ve been looking for in all the wrong places”.

How did your husband so successfully create this tension without scaring you off??

Not an impossible situation, as I said before. You and your husband are a clear reminder of this. But, it is the ultimate dilemma!

28

Would that have a little something to do with the A-1 :wink:

Great Post

Tish

29

Sorry if I was over-dramatic in my post! I have a natural thing in the creative-writing department, and I tend to use a lot of analogy. I wish I could vocalize myself the same way I do it with a pen/keyboard.

I too am picky when it comes to my women. Some say too picky. I just don’t like to settle for second-best. I do date. I do approach women. I have had GFs that I met randomly, without knowing before, where things worked out from the start, until they no-longer worked at all. But, I have also had friends that I woke up to and wanted something more, and those are the ones I messed up, because I concentrated too much on not messing it up. Scared 'em off somehow, before things even got started. I found myself in the same situation again just recently, and not sure if I’ve learned yet from my past experiences. If my efforts didn’t work before, obviously a different approach is warranted now. Relationships are a life-long learning process, but sometimes, you just want to do it correctly from the start!

30

Its hard to explain really but I will try.

He would never talk to me without making some kind of eye contact and holding it just a little longer then was normal.
He teased me alot, Alot of flirty humor, He liked to delibratly get in my way (snort) I think this was so we would have to make some kind of touch contact. That one was a big one for me. He would get in my space just long enough to create tension and then back off right away. Sort of like the advance and curb method. Then one day he didnt back off.

It was in his body language and We talk alot about that here in the forum and there are alot of articles on it all over the net.
Body language is not something to just use when your dating it helps create a aura and it can create sexual tension.

Eye contact, mild inuendos, Just bringing up the subject of sex (I dont mean talking dirty) just making her comfortable with the use of the word and other words associated with it when she is with you.

Flirting, Teasing (not negging). Humor is a great way to creates tension.

If you think about it its much like the PUA tactics the men talk about on here when they try to pick up women. Except on a slower more drawn out level because right now your friends. I myself dont believe in the hard core PUA stuff but that dosnt mean that these men who teach it are all wrong. I think they have taken the basic concepts of creating tension and amplied it. When with your friends use the basic concepts but toned down as to not freak anyone out.

Also remember this. You can be a friend and still be sexy. Sexy is not in the way you look as most guys would think. Its in the way you conduct yourself, a aura you give off. Course it helps if you keep yourself Healthy, neat and groomed. People who are sexy create tension without even thinking about it.

Tisha

31

Great points Tisha. I’d rep you, but I’m afraid at this stage your head might explode.

Actually a good PUA realizes that negging is synonymous with a good tease. I believe and have seen way too many new guys actually insult people rather than neg them.

A neg is never an insult, but framed correctly its nothing more than a good tease.

This is exactly why I created this post: to get everyone thinking.

Where’s PQ?

32

Thank You

Bet you a bottle of pheromones I can make your head explode before you make mine explode :open_mouth:

Whoo I am such a naughty girl and on a Sunday morning to :stuck_out_tongue:

33

It’s amazing how I just negged you the proper way and you thanked me for it.

Now I have her bantering with the sex talk. I don’t even know you, can we keep it normal before you go acting all crazy in front of my friends.

34

Ya know… it can be pretty simple and sweet… a lifetime a go when I was in Bali… the Balinese had folkstories and myths they told their young to prepare them for the romantic phase of life… derived from the old Hindu tales mixed with local stories… always involved a handsome prince and a beautiful maiden who happened on each other by the roaring stream or other local get together spot… the Balinese elders were careful to stress the distinction between narcissitic love (they called it wanting-for-yourself) and inclusive love (wanting-for-the-other)… the turning point in the story was when narcissism transformed into mutual feeling… where there is genuine curiosity about the other person (the central thing IMHO), versus using the other as a projection screen for one’s own “stuff”… and that can enlarge into shared psychic space… all the work is done… however, we western do-ists have a big thing for do-ing… so we come on with our bag of do-ing tricks and it has a heavy, almost procedural feel… the Taoists and Tai Chi masters had this amazing idea of yin state of yielding and listening flowing into a yang state of advancing and expressing, then back into the yin state in a constantly mobile flux of being… :wink:

35

ROFL I Thanked you for saying Good point not for the neg. :smiley:

I just showed the guys a example of this…

OOoo We make a good team Steveo maybe we should go on the mystery show on VH1. (snort)

36

Hey Tish,

Thanks for sharing your personal experience.

After my somewhat exaggerated and dramatic monologue, it was obvious to me after Gegogi scolded me and your likewise lengthy rebuttal, that I managed to ruffle some feathers, or at least stir up a little controversy. I can be quite passionate sometimes, especially when I write. My intensity is something I’ve had to learn to curb, especially in relationships, so when I take to writing, I sometimes let loose.

You and Gegogi managed to bring me back down to earth, and of course I realize that friendship is vital to relationships. Reflecting on my past experiences in these situations, I think that it is my intensity (and maybe even impatience) that nailed the coffin shut, so to speak. By laying all my cards on the table too soon, I always neglected the bit about tension.

I agree with you that this game, at least tactically, is much the same as the pick-up game, only more drawn out. Whether the goal is a one night stand or an LTR, it’s still all about attraction.

I think that this time 'round, even before my post, I realized that I do have to take it easy and be a little more subtle. Drop hints, not bombs - and always work on the friendship part. Be myself. After all, if other girls find me sexy enough, why shouldn’t she. It’s hard to stay focused when memories of past experiences come to surface.

I saw her again tonight, and l was thinking about how great it is to be around her. At one point, she caught me looking at her when the conversation involved other people in the room, and as our eyes locked, I smiled at her subtly. She couldn’t read my thoughts, but I was thinking to myself, you know, they’re right: cultivate this friendship. Be myself, who I am now; don’t try to be different. Let her know with ways other than words that I know what I want. I want you to dance with me. Let the music flow from there, and see where it takes us.

BTW… since this forum is still about pheros, I’ll just throw in that I really do think that Instant Female Magic has given me a boost in this situation. I can see when it works. The effects are subtle, as they should be. I’m going to make it a permanent part of my arsenal going forward!

37

Thats an excellent point Tacitus! Pua do ings are not natural but are attempts to regain the natural flow of attraction.
Therefore,they are not spontaneous and tend to be narcissistic focusing on one night stands and scoring .Perhaps thats why they are worthless for intimate relationships where serving the other is more important.

“Constant mobile flux of being” how beautiful! Thats whats happening with my lover.Its what iv waited for all my life.

38

It’s true.. and it’s not just a pua who can be narcisstic. It can be a woman too who is more self-centred than balanced.
I’m learning that for a balanced relationship I will need to find someone who is somewhat more balanced than the last person I found…
I’m glad you managed to find what you were looking for.. that’s great..

39

Thanks phoenix!

Your right about that women are not angels no matter how cute they are.
Sometimes you gotta step back and assess a girl to see what kinda person she is.
If you respect who she is i think thats so important.

40

Totally disagree!

I always focus on the BIG picture, am not narcissistic in any way and really try to avoid one night stands altogether. I have had them, but try to turn them into something more meaningful. I love women and love spending time with them.

Why not share myself?