Hi,
Does anyone have insight into the mechanics of pheromone reception, specifically whether damage to the VNO such as during rhinoplasty or septum repair causes pheromones to be powerless in humans?
Thanks for reading - I look forward to hearing what you think.
Cheers,
On reflection, this question looks a bit abstract so I’d better expand on it (sorry!):
The vomeronasal organ (VNO) is found at the base of the nasal cavity. It is split into two, being divided by the nasal septum.
The sensory neurons of the vomeronasal organ detect specific chemical compounds contained within scents that are often, but not always, large non-volatile molecules. Notably by way of the vomeronasal organ, some scents act as chemical-communication signals (pheromones) from other individuals of the same species.
Septoplasty (fixing a deviated or damaged septum) or rhinoplasty (nose job) nearly always damage the VNO. Although new laser procedures can apparently preserve it.
Olfactory sensations (smell) are normally preserved, with changes to odour threshold and odour discrimination being limited to the first 9 postoperative months.
i.e. if you have a sports injury (like my rugby nose) fixed or you have cosmetic surgery then you run a seriously high risk of permanent damage to the chemical communication system we’re all playing with here.
Any feedback sincerely appreciated!
Some scientists now think humans don’t actually have a vomeronasal organ. Other animal species can detect pheromones without a VNO, humans can as well. Scent of Eros is a good book to read on the subject even though it is somewhat dated (JVKohl no longer believes the evidence that humans have a VNO, pheromones work more directly than a seperate organ in the nose).
Other stuff I’ve read said there could be pheromone receptors scattered all over the nose along with regular smell receptors. The nose might not distinguish between interesting and non-interesting smells, being more of the brain’s job.
This might also have something to do with how aromatherapy works as well, since many chemicals in fragrances can alter the state of the brain. Incensole acetate, an incense component, elicits psychoactivity by activating TRPV3 channels in the brain – Moussaieff et al., 10.1096/fj.07-101865 – The FASEB Journal (Incensole acetate, a component of frankicense, alters the brain activity in rats and influences their behavior under stress and depression models). Some odorous plants such as ylang ylang, agarwood, valerian, or even animal musks and so forth have been considered to be aphrodisiacs or intoxicants in many traditional cultures.
I’m sure you’ve heard that in Europe in the past the wealthy used to carry around gloves scented with musks and they became “addicted” to inhaling them. There’s no reason to think some synthetic musks might not have similar effects if the chemicals “dock” at the same receptor sites and the brain interprets them in the same way. I’m just getting into perfumery much more seriously myself and I’ll be experimenting soon with synthetic civet, musk deer and castoreum musks, as well as others. Maybe I’ll report on them if they do anything for me.
On a less rambling note… how is your overall sense of smell after the sports injury? You still smell stuff, right?
Thanks for the reply.
Personally speaking, the nose works fine. I’ve never been anosmic, or even hyperosmic. Some do have better sense of smell, but I’ve always been happy with mine as it plays a large part in my cooking and related sense of taste.
The only area in which I’ve had problems is with reduced airflow around the nasal cavity and some ear infections relating to the Eustachian tube. This is causing problems both at work (flying) and play (diving) and I’m looking to get it fixed.
Interesting what you say about the VNO. I realise that it was only ‘discovered’ relatively recently but evidence for it’s presence and function is gathering weight
Presence of VNO The incidence of the vomeronasal organ in 1000 human subjects and its possible clinical significance.
Removal of VNO Consequences of removing the vomeronasal organ.
Human function extendedText
My personal concern is that nose damage, in my case potential (or certain - Monday!) damage can potentially cause a blindness or at least partial sightedness to pheromones. Risk of anosmia is small, I’ve been told.
Also very interesting is your relation of this topic to aromatherapy - I dated an aromatherapist for a while during her training and took an interest, but my understanding of the mechanics of human perception and sense of the essential oils is sadly lacking - I’ll have to read more, although my interest here is specifically pheromones rather than overall smell.
The article put forward by visionary7903 is very good, BTW
… I thought I was the only one [waft, waft, sneer]
Anyway, back to me and my hooter - I shall have another chat with the ENT Consultant and enjoy as much IS as I can now. Can it be drunk?
If anyone else is still with us - think very carefully before getting that cute little button nose-job. Girls should think very carefully too!
Thanks Daedelus - very useful. Is there an Icarus, btw?
I’m pretty sure that some pheromones like copulins are not detected by a hypothetical VNO. Copulins is made of some rather ordinary chemicals, most of which are not produced by the human body itself, and most of which are not considered “aphrodisiacs” in themselves. However, the effect in humans (and primates in general) is blatant. I think it’s clear the brain’s interpretation of alot of these chemicals is key to the “pheromonal” effect, regardless of any particular nasal organ.
Good luck with your ENT.
This is one of the most realistic modern theories for pheromone reception which does not use the VNO. It was originally posted on the forum by Eldros at the link below.
What makes us fall in love? Is it lust, mutual interests, shared life goals, or something much more intangible? Recent research suggests the latter.
Researchers have only recently discovered an olfactory nerve that they believe is the route through which pheromones are processed. Nerve “O,” as it is called, slipped under the radar for many years because it is so tiny. However, when the nerve was discovered in a whale, scientists surmised that this little nerve might be found in humans as well. And it was!
So what is the role of Nerve “O”? Nerve “O” has endings in the nasal cavity, but the fibers go directly to the sexual regions of the brain. Indeed, these endings entirely bypass the olfactory cortex! Hence we know the role of Nerve “O” is not to consciously smell, but to identify sexual cues from our potential partners.
What sexual cues do our scents give off? For one thing, we are more likely to be attracted to people whose scent is dissimilar to our own. Family members often share similar chemicals, so our attraction to differing chemical makeup suggests that sexual cues evolved to protect close family members from procreating together. On the other hand, pregnant women have been shown to be more drawn to people with similar chemical makeup, which might be due to the fact that during this crucial time, women are more apt to seek out family members than potential mates.
Research has also shown that these unconscious cues processed in Nerve “O” can make or break a relationship. Couples who have high levels of chemicals in common are more likely to encounter fertility issues, miscarriage and infidelity. The more dissimilar your and your partner’s chemical makeup, the better chance you will have at successfully procreating and staying together.
So how can you create the scent that will keep you and your partner in the land of happily ever after? Unfortunately, you can’t. Perfumes and colognes can’t fool Nerve “O” — the scents that humans and animals are attracted to are intangible and instinctive. Even the most expensive designer perfume can’t fool Mother Nature. When it comes to sexual attraction, it seems you really have to leave things in the air!
However, if you are taking a hormonal contraceptive, you might be bucking an evolutionary tide. Women who are on the pill are more likely to be attracted to men with similar chemical makeup — most likely because their bodies are fooling them into believing they are pregnant, and so much like actual pregnant women, their Nerve “O” leads them to kin and not mates. So if you were on the pill when you met your mate, you might experience a diminishing attraction when you cease taking it.
OOnly time will tell what role Nerve “O” plays in future sex research, but one thing is for sure: When it comes to true love, follow your nose!
*Dr. Laura Berman is the director of the Berman Center (http://www.bermancenter.com/) in Chicago, a specialized health care facility dedicated to helping women and couples find fulfilling sex lives and enriched relationships. She is also an assistant clinical professor of OB-GYN and psychiatry at the Feinberg School of Medicine at Northwestern University. She has been working as a sex educator, researcher and therapist for 18 years.
Not all pheromones are sexual, though… I can think of at least one that isn’t sexual, TAK.
Also, it doesn’t explain the neurosensory effects of aroma molecules, which can be observed even in lab animals. For instance, incensole acetate, a chemical in olibanum/Frankincense, lowers anxiety in rats. The response to pheromones and psychoactive odors might be within the brain itself, and not a seperate nerve or organ in the nose; part of the same general neuro-olfactory system.
Scent of Eros is a good book to read on the subject, too. Though the information about the VNO is a bit outdated, since there is more evidence now days that adult humans lack a VNO. It’s not really necessary for pheromones to work- organisms like insects for instance have no special organs for smelling pheromones.
Has anyone investigated the TAAR (trace amine-associated receptors) system and it’s effect on “social pheromone” activation? It is an alternate activation pathway in the nasal epithileum. Possibly used as part replacement for the VNO.
Here’s a link to an article I was interviewed for about Nerve Zero.
Little-known nerve may be secret to lust — JSCMS
The company that initially promoted products based on their human VNO effects no longer does so. That should suffice for most people to ignore claims made by marketers who say their products works via the human VNO, which doesn’t exist.
Work with TAAR’s (trace amine-associated receptors) is promising, but it will probably need to progress by showing a link between the receptors and a hormone response generated by hormone-secreting nerve cells in the brain. Meanwhile, people should note that the people who are researching these receptors have not launched any commercial products.
I will announce research results from studies in 2006 and 2007 that address the effectiveness on women’s behavior of the chemical combination in Scent of Eros (SoE)–once an already accepted presentation is made public. I’m now working with others who are in a preliminary phase of testing the copulins in SoE/women.
I’ve been very active on the Yahoo group “human ethology” during the past few months, especially in a thread “Can functions be inherited?” which will give most people more information than they want on the molecular biology end of pheromones. It will also show how time-consuming discussion can be with other researchers.
James V. Kohl
Sorry for the delay in repost, but interesting comments and links. My thought is this, if the TAAR system is based on GABA neurons, has anyone thought of using a gaba alcohol compound to enhance effect of nones?
The human VNO scam is an example of how even I was convinced that a marketing ploy was “good” science. We used the appropriate caveats in the book, like “appears to be” and other phrases to indicate some scientific skepticism, but still came off supporting information about a structure that doesn’t exist.
Now that I know better, I have tried to alert people to this scientific scam, and tell them to avoid products with claims of VNO activation. This is one reason I was banned from the Love-Scent Forum. (I’m not great for product sales, if false claims are being made about the product).
From my more informed (compared to the early 90’s) scientific perspective, I have since written or co-authored three articles for peer-reviewed publication. These articles take a “hard science” stand on the issues of human chemical communication, something that my book co-author and I could not do. There wasn’t enough scientific evidence back then; there is now. Back then, we thought there probably was a human VNO; now we know there is not.
Thank you for calling this Forum members’ attention to the facts.
James V. Kohl
author: The Scent of Eros
I’m not enough of a chemist to predict any alcohol-dependent difference, but you may be on to something important. Ethanol injestion alters levels of luteinizing hormone and has central nervous system effects. It would not surprise me to learn that the molecular structure of the “alcohol” makes a difference. After all the ketone form of an androstene (i.e., androstenone) is associated with a negative response from women, while the alcohol form (i.e., androstenol) is associated with a positive response.
Is there any chance you will follow up on your speculation?
James V. Kohl
http://www.pheromones.com
Not likely at this junction in time. But even if someone tried to use a GABA-alcohol in solution while just adding alcohol based nones you might be able to increase neurotransmitter activity in the TAAR system. That should increase the level of stimulation of the nones themselves. Since both alcohols should have a high degree of absorbtion in the mucus membranes of the sinuses. Reuptake of the GABA will increase the strengh of the nerve firing and extend or potentiate the none effect. It could be worth a try. Downside would be that the GABA system might just be to calming instead of just relaxing. I have seen some posts about women getting tired after a “none rush”. This might be extention of the GABA responce, since it has a valium like effect on the majority of the human system (muscular, mental etc.). I wonder if the “none” responce is partially controlled by the level and intensity of the GABA release. Interesting, any thoughts?
As I indicated, I think you are onto something important, but it’s also very complicated. In addition to pheromones, noradrenergic, dopaminergic, serotoninergic, and opiotergic pathways, as well as inhibitory neurotransmitters like gammaaminobutyric acid (i.e., GABA) and excitatory amino acids like glutamic and aspartic acids and other brain peptides including pineal secretions like melatonin and corticotrophin releasing hormone and the complex interactions among them, are subtle but functional species-specific influences on the electrochemical transmission of neuronal signals that the hypothalamus translates to the chemical signal GnRH.
So, what we have here is a list of chemical influences on behavior that reads like a list either of therapeutic psychotropics, or of chemicals (neurotransmitters) known to influence behavior. Pheromones might indirectly effect GnRH via any of these associated neuronal pathways, but its easier to just acknowledge their direct effect on GnRH, as the source of their effect on behavior.
This is “over the top” for any discussion list, so I’ll leave it at that. Nice to see another expert here, in any case. I’ll be at the Society for Neuroscience annual meeting in November, and will probably learn more about the GABA-ergic system.
James Kohl
http://www.pheromones.com
Yes and an interesting conversation this is. I don’t know forum rules here so if this is “over the top” and we should stop then I will end this with a thank you and hope to speak to you again. But if you would like to do a little mental masturbation on the possible neurochemical cascade from a clinical chemistry look then let me know and we can speculate on the intercorrelations of the basics via amino acid metabolism. I find this very interesting from a clinical point of view. Thank you again for the conversation.
DrT
It always interests me when someone with a background in neuroscience shows up here. I just don’t have enough time to follow up on the GABAergic connection. A colleague is studying a glutamate connection in all this, and her direction shows as much or more promise. In this regard, Jill Helberg has a remarkable interdisciplinary grasp. Funding is always the issue, nonetheless.
James Kohl
Well maybe next time we can chat. Jill’s work does sound interesting. The connection of GABA being connected to Glutamate and Glutamine should be interesting, especially with the high amounts of GABA and Glutamate/Glutamine neurons in the hippocampus area of limbic system. I understand how the funding issues are always tough. But good luck to her hope it pans out well. Maybe we can chat again.
DrT
I hope that funding will be less problematic when my colleagues and I show pheromones have behavioral affects. This must be done to meet the classical definition of pheromones that includes both physiology and behavior. So far, only effects on physiology have been found by others using their choice of compounds (e.g., androstadienone) in supraphysiological amounts. That’s sufficient for marketing purposes, along with debunked studies by people marketing products. I take the science more seriously; too seriously, perhaps.
James V. Kohl
I completely understand the problem. I wish you luck with the “proof” squads. I became interested in this topic as a result of my practice.Many of my late 30’s, 40’s and 50’s patients are complaining that they find it very difficult to become aroused after working their butts off all week. They don’t have erectile disfunction or failure to orgasim, but they don’t seem to have enough energy to get over the top and want sexual activity. They report after I get into it it is fine but it takes a lot to get me started. I was hoping that phero’s might be the anwser for them as they don’t want the 3 day erections and subsequent blindness that goes with it or the “I’m wet for the day but don’t feel it” solutions from traditional medical sources. My thought is that the addition of phero’s to a friday or saturday night might just be the intitiator they are looking for. Since they just need a little push to get them rolling. These people are probably a good block of individuals to use for testing to get the behavioral effects of phero’s double blinded. Maybe you could find a therapist with a large block of patients with this issue and do the double blind with them. It would give you a good place to start for funding anyway and it would be cheap to carry out if the therapist was willing to just do the publishing and take some credit instead of cash. I know it’s soft as far as the science goes, but hey it might give you the springboard you need.
I have been intrigued by the results I have been seeing on my own. I might try to recommend them if this continues to be positive in the way of personal results. Glad to hear that this is more in the relm of science as I have been reading on this board for a while.
I’m happy to learn that you are considering therapeutic use to a patient population, since it is something I can’t advocate. A forthcoming Neuroscience 2008 poster session abstract is now available: Search the following URL for “Kohl,” and you’ll find some of the most up-to-date information on pheromones and behavioral affect in women.
Oasis, Online Abstract Submission and Invitation System - Program Planner
We didn’t check for increased wetness, however. Appreciation of my scientific approach is nice, too; it got me banned from the “other” Forum.
James V. Kohl
http://www.pheromones.com