That is the thing IF one woman perceives that type of behavior as being “scared” than I am sure there are others. That is what makes humans so complex. Do I agree with the woman from dance class, NO!!! There is just too much involved in the equation to look for a spray on answer which is what this threads about.
Rad -
No you’re absolutely right with the whole men have to take the approach with women to get things done. You said yourself you were shy once but you’re still a go getter in life.
I don’t believe I’m the exception, more of the norm when it comes to life’s go getters then get my act together and learn how to interact with women or get over that approach anxiety.
It just resonates with me more that there are all these generalizations. It’s a catch-22, and we can discuss it in this forum because we have more in depth conversations and time, but I do get what you’re saying that if a guy is shy and won’t approach you, then you won’t have the opportunity to find out. I think that’s just the extent of it. I’ve known so many guys that have scored beautiful and successful women when introduced and broke the ice already. Again, there can be arguments in either direction (for and against mine) but what are ya gonna do.
Ok, but how do you test the effectiveness of mones then?
If I walk up to a girl, act confidently, do my “attraction techniques” and she gets attracted, was the mones or it was me?
If the only thing mones can do is make the behavior more readily accepted, and this need to be tested also, you would better invest in self-improvement then.
Great post BTW
Really you need to establish a baseline, which I included in some premade charts for recording data that I have somewhere around here…Basically you record the average of how strangers of both genders and various races, age groups etc generally respond to you upon meeting. Then rate the average response when wearing a specific product or mix. You can do likewise by measuring how people you see daily react to you and then monitor their changing perception during a period of wearing.
What I’ve found is, as I may have said they give an initial impression with strangers, if we’re talking only about attraction (they have more potential than just that but we’ll keep it simple) I use “attraction techniques” and have for a few years now, enough that I notice that I spot IOI’s a lot sooner…sometimes even before I’ve done anything to consciously flip any attraction switches. The mones hitting will communicate those attractive qualities before I even open my mouth.
And even if they don’t work that fast, they make it smoother…easier. I’d almost say that mones have hurt my game in as much as that I may be getting lazy since opening set is so much easier when I’m wearing. If you do actually use pickup tactics for any length of time you start to get good at reading body language. And you’ll notice certain differences between the products that requires you to tailor your game.
Ammo is probably the easiest to work with and a PUA’s best friend. Well rounded enough to communicate three attractive qualities in equal measure. Meaning your own natural personality (just a wee bit more confident) should hold well with it. I can do just about anything and get good results with Ammo.
A314 on the other hand communicates high status, things I’ve noticed when using high doses of it are that screening questions are more likely to be accepted (not so much of a “what makes you so special that you can act like a judge over me?” attitude) However to many negs can be misinterpreted as actually looking down on people. I’ve had girls give me that look like I just said something genuinely hurtful and near ready to cry over a playful joke…A314 raises your status that much that you can hurt a womans feelings if you’re not careful.
Jerk on the flip side, heavy negs and lots of cocky funny is almost expected. Equally attractive but in a different way.
Now I suppose you could do just the tactics and get results…yes a lot and I would even dare say most PUA’s get good results without pheromones. But as I said, if you want to question if the mones are working or if it’s you…the best proof is in wearing something that will work against you and see how much harder it is with a bad mix to appreciate how much easier it can be with the right mix. And if you have a fair amount of experience studying (AND PRACTICING) the game, you’re likely good enough at reading body language and spotting IOI’s that you can tell something else is going on besides your game.
I was half joking when I suggested it in my initial post but in hindsight I actually think it’d be a good lesson.
Take the most feminine product you can get, Instant Sexiness B which communicates a soft demure feminine sex kitten vibe, and apply three sprays.
Then cover it with cologne strength Mystery Boy (the product designed for gay men) and go try and run some PUA routines on women…especially mixed sets where there’s likely to be some AMOGING. I have no doubts you’ll find that both genders, regardless of your efforts, will have hard time accepting you as a high status alpha male with strong masculine qualities. I’m sure with persistence they will but you’ll find it an uphill battle. Then after a few nights of trying to be an alpha male while carrying a very feminine and soft vibe about yourself…try again with some combo of the more masculine products.
As for their value among people you know, yes, they have preconceived notions about you that mones alone won’t change. And behavior alone might change with a lot of effort over a period of time. But a change in behavior coupled with a phero sig that communicates the vibe you’re going for? Accepted a lot faster and with less effort making it EXTREMELY valuable to somebody going on a self improvement journey and doesn’t want to run into resistance and even possible ridicule from peers who have gotten comfortable with them in their proper place.
IE Try to grow, become more alpha, demand more respect and assert yourself a bit more. You’ll find a lot of people, even those you may consider friends to be uncomfortable with your growth. You may be accused of pretending or being a try hard, but with the right phero signal they’ll get the sense that the change is real and you’re not the same beta guy you were before. Smoother transition.
I really hope all of that made sense…I tend to be a right windy bastard at times.
RAD and P51 both have a good point. If I meet a guy and all he does is make eye contact, there is too little I know about him for that interaction to be meaningful. Even in the best scenario all Ï know is that he is handsome, has good body language and makes eye contact in an attractive way. That may get my attention in the moment, but that’s it. He is forgotten soon.
If he hits on me and we have a flirty five minute conversation, I can tell he is smart, funny, confident, and probably single, and it means a bit more. If he does not ask my number or ask me out, he too is forgotten, but a bit later than the first guy. If we met while at a class, volunteering or work, we would meet again anyway. If on the train, at a bar or in the park, we’d probably never meet again unless he asked me out. Especially in nightlife where there are going to be several other guys who come for a chat that night.
Once you have been on a couple of dates with a girl, you are really miles ahead of the others because she knows quite a few things about you, and likes them enough to go out with you again. But until then there is little reason why it should be you and not any of the others. You may have a ton of great qualities but girls are not psychic.
There are exeptions of course…I’m talking about girls passively looking to date. Most girls arent looking in an urgent way, because we haven’t testosterone driving us. To some girls looks matter very very much and some girls may be actively looking to meet someone that night. Some women may be on the rebound or may be looking to cheat while her man is on holiday or may be swingers. Some women may be broke and are actively looking for men who can help them financially. Some girls rarely get flirted with and make the most of any eyecontant with a reasonable looking guy. Some girls enjoy taking the lead and going after a guy and running the show. There are all sorts of people out there.
I think some take this concept to far or out of context as you mentioned with the above statement.
Frankly while I do promote congruence focusing on it so intently can be as much as a hindrance as a benefit when it comes to pheromone use. Acting “as if” will not make you be something your not and neither will pheromones. I think some have taken the general ideal to the extreme. The key is not to change who you are by acting a certain way but not to act in a totally opposing way to the signal.
So for instance if your wearing IO that doesn’t mean you have to go up and talk to people (although it helps) you do have to be open and responsive when they talk to you though. If you act mean or stand there like a lump on a log your shit out of luck. The signal wont match and they will move on…opportunity missed.
If your wearing A314 but act like a sally boy. Wont make eye contact, have closed timid body language and wont interact when approached your signal wont match. You dont have to walk in and approach every person and talk a good game. Alpha man are generally rather quiet at least the real ones are. They just smile and watched amused as you do all the work.
Now if you trying to act over congruent or be something your not you wont be comfortable and frankly you will make a ass of yourself so do what your comfortable with. As more and more hits occur so will your comfort zone. So I dont suggest if your starting out shy to jump right in open sets and hit on women. Always work a little out of your comfort zone. That’s how you build confidence. That is how you conquer shyness. Baby steps. You didnt learn to walk by jumping out of your cradle and running down the street. You learned by first learning to pick your head up and look around, then you learned to roll over, then to sit up, then to crawl then stand falling on your ass over and over until finally you were running and it became comfortable. You do it know all the time without thinking about it. Pheromones are a tool to help make that easier, to help you make the small steps needed to succeed and the great thing is they sort of grow with you always pushing you just one step beyond where you thought you could go. You have to take the step though
When I coach I dont tell people to get some “balls” LOL. They already know that, they want to know how to get them, Where to get them, what do I have to do to get them ??? What can aid me in getting them ? (pheromones) If they were so easy to get wouldn’t everyone have them ? Some of us have to work for them more then others. Some of us got them when we were little and some of us have to obtain them when we are older. Some of us may never get a pair.
I dont encourage people to jump in over there heads until they can at least float.
Just a brief overview…
If your shy and you freeze up when people talk to you. Work on that first until its your zone. Work on making eye contact when you talk. Work on your body language. Then move onto just saying hello to strangers, then work on starting short convo’s with strangers. etc etc. Baby steps. Get comfortable with each zone then move into the next zone. Always working just slightly outside your comfort zone. That is the way to achieve any goal and any tool including pheromones that makes it easier to obtain should be used. That’s what tools are for. Did you start using pheromones to better yourself or just so you would have something you have to buy and spray on for the rest of your life to achieve your objective ?
Actually I really dont think that all women think this way. I am sure there are some who do though. Most of us are aware enough to know that shyness or quietness and is not the whole a reflection of a mans potential. We also know people grow though life experiences and in doing so change comes. While confidence is more attractive then being negative and unsure its just one aspect of attraction and dosent guarantee success in anything. I know more outgoing confident assholes then I know shy quiet losers. Assuming that shyness equates to failure is a misconception.
Plus many women like the quiet strength men can display. Confidence is only obtained by being comfortable with yourself whether your shy or not. You can fake it but eventually you will have to back it up.
Wow that women in dance class was very ignorant. Shyness in social situations doesn’t mean shyness in work situations. I know tons of men who are very successful in the work place but are not outgoing socially. She may have missed out on a great guy and its her own fault because of her way of thinking.
…
I am not trying to say dont try to be outgoing or that congruence is not important. I think Rads point is a great one but I think it can be biting off more then some new people can chew just yet. In conveying the importance of congruence I dont want people to lose sight of what pheromones can do for them. They make it all easier. They create comfort, ease, arousal, attraction and a plethora of other positive emotions making it easier for you to interact. You will grow more congruent as you use mones naturally not by a biological change in your signature but by the increase in life experiences that pheromones will help you obtain. Learn something from those experiences and before you know it you will be closing sets with or without your mones on. Take each step and move out of your comfort zone just a little. Let mones help you do that. Eventually we all outgrow our tools but its always good to know they are in our tool box when we need them. Keep in mind though that your use of mones helps others feel at ease as well so they are useful for more reasons then just getting you to your objective.
I have been here a long time and have watch the men and women grow and change over the years without even knowing its happening to them and I know pheromones played there part in it. You just got to take that one step out of your comfort zone.
Tisha
Very good, smart and informative post indeed! This is also kinda the whole
approach I came into this whole world of pheromones; I look at them as
facilitators; not as solutions. I expect them to facilitate things or enhance
other things that are already happening, but I don’t expect them to have
super powerful impacts like other chemicals such as any toxic whatever…
I think it is pretty sad that most people have been brainwashed to look at
mones as magic pills or any unique source for that matter (even pickup) as
a magic pill which you just swallow once and boom life is solved. This is
also why I love one statement Dr. Phil has made even though I hate his
political correctness in TV, he said and writes in one of his books that, “Life
is not solved, it is managed” and he also wrote that, “Life rewards action”.
These two statements are in line with your statement, “Congruence is key”
which simply means you gotta ACT AS IF when you’re wearing mones since
they aren’t gonna affect people as powerfully as any toxic chemical would.
I do remember that when I first saw this forum I was also getting these
wishful thoughts and fantasies about me just putting on some mones and
seeing that every woman wouldn’t be able to stop drooling over me then.
What I have experienced myself with the ladies is this: It is not what I
should do, how I should do it or why I should even do it, it is GETTING
MYSELF IN THE FIRST PLACE TO DO IT AT ALL, that matters all the time.
So, as you point out, if you mones in your skin, but don’t take action
(since life rewards it and are managed through it), mones are as useless as
any other tool in one’s toolbox. Gotta alot of hammers but am I using 'em?
\\AplAy //
P.S. I’m surprised to see many “coaches” here since
I read that in some posts, “when I coach blabla”. Is
everyone a dating coach after visiting this website?!
Nah bro, I started studying PUA a few years ago, still consider myself a student as whenever some new guy or group comes out with a new product I look into it to see if they actually bring anything new to the topic. I then decide if and how it can fit within my own game. I don’t do it professionally but through networking (friends and friends of friends) I’ve helped guys that see the success I’ve been getting and ask for pointers.
It’s sorta been evolving into a more general life coaching gig because of three reasons.
1.) I don’t endorse lying to women based on my own morals, besides which it’s too easy to get caught up (A funny example, on the VH1 show Mystery did, one of his students used the “false time constraint” tactic of saying something like “I can only stay a minute, I have to get back to my friends”…in the middle of his routine one of the girls asked where his friends were. Dude was sent into the club alone and felt pretty stupid) remembering to keep a bunch of stories that are false in order so there are no inconsistencies is too hard. So I prefer to focus on the what the pickup tactics are trying to communicate to the woman…and learn to make it authentic and genuine via actual lifestyle changes.
2.) I’ve found that the inner game issue of confidence and self worth is easier to build up if the guy feels that he has improved himself and his life in general and has more value to a woman as a result.
3.) Yeah sure a balding, overweight 40 year old, unemployed guy living in his parents basement CAN, with the right techniques and inner game, build attraction and seduce some very hot women…I’ve seen it myself.
But in the long term, that doesn’t really offer the woman much value. I suppose it’s kind of like what some people have been saying about the LOA…you have to create space in your life for what you want to attract. In essence you need to address one of the key questions that few of the PUA guru’s encourage you to ask yourself “OK so I got the girl…now what?”
So yeah instead of focusing too much on tactics that men can use to appear attractive, or convince the woman they’re “alpha” or “high value”, I just sorta started coaching them on tactics to overhaul their life to BECOME the game they throw.
The attraction switches get flipped automatically because when they’re talking about their actual life truthfully, they’re talking about things the woman will find attractive.
The confidence they show is genuine because they’ve been challenged in the 12 area’s of their life and have shown themselves they have the inner strength to meet the challenges and become better men.
Of course I’m not certified in anything, this is based on a structure I developed for myself and used with success and have seen positive results with the handful of guys I’ve coached. I happened upon AD looking for a pheromone product that could help in the seduction and relationship area only…found A314 and other products and realized the amazing potential of these molecules for the other area’s of a persons life.
…damn I really need to stop being so wordy.
I assume the bla bla bla was directed at me in a backward sort of way since I am the one who said “when I coach” No I didnt become a coach after I joined here. I’ve been doing it part time on and off for over 20 years now, since college where I majored in social sciences and sex ed. I am not a dating coach. I am a certified personal development coach. What some call a life coach or mentor now a days. Although I work for the PO for the benefits coaching is still my first love.
I think you will find a lot of people here coaching and helping each other though. Some are coaches some are not. That’s what makes this forum so great. People helping each other not just with pheromones but with all sorts of life issues.
Tisha
I happen to mentor in an organisation for general self improvement, taking people from normal to something better. It includes social skills, and I particularly enjoy that topic, but I’m not a dating coach. One of the guys I mentor studies PUA and finds it to be useful for improving his social skills, I’ve done a bit reading on the topic through him and because of what I’ve read on this forum and recognize in it some of the dynamics I know from other areas of social skill as well as women’s methods. Most people who come to serious pheromones are into self improvement and if you do that well enough, people ask you for advice or ask you to take others under your wing.
I feel mones can do a lot for you, if not, I would not be here and continued using them. When I’m nervous about something, a bit of spaceland can calm my nerves a lot. I’m comfortable talking to people socially, but can get nervous when I have to defend myself against something unjust. For example, if I paid way too much for my electricity and have to convince/bully them into giving that back to me. Handling a debate is uncomfortable to me, yet being treated unjustly upsets me. I think a guy who is afraid to talk to women feels the same way. Tischa and RAD both present a side of the issue. Spraying on a little helper can make me less nervous and more convincing, and thus make it easier to handle that difficult conversation. Taking things a little step at a time makes sense on some level. Yet, the reason behind my discomfort in that conversation is the amount of upset I’m feeling, which can only be solved by getting through the problem with action. Another thing that is scary for me is helghts. Here, living with my fears is not a big problem, and a traumatic experience is likely the cause, so taking it slowly works best for me. Each person has to find out for themselves how to best deal with their fears, little steps or diving into the deep. Mones arent a substitute for action, they make action more comfortable and more effective. Then, practice desensitizes you to the feared situation and results motivate you to seek the situation out again. Eventually, your nerves act up just enough to rev you up and give you a thrill. I think that whenever we face our fears, we have an opportunity for growth.
This is also my experience. Working on several areas brings results that are more robust and more authentic. Some problems exist in one area, but often the same problem exists in several areas. And often when a person is improving one area, wile neglecting all others, he has inflated expectations about succes in that area, and is disappointed when he reaches his goal. Working on all areas you create synergy between your skills; social skills help your career, good career gives you money for the gym and better clothes so you make a better impression, connections give you opportunities to expand your knowledge etc.
For dating, being someone who invests time in himself and achieves things that satisfy him, with a great and full life, and the self respect it brings does so much for a man. (or a woman) It makes him look and move in a happy, confident, attractive way, gives him a feeling that he is a man worth meeting, assures him he will not fall into the abyss if he does not have a girlfriend for a while, helps his conversations be interesting and makes his friends and enemies treat him in a way that makes him look good to women. (Every man is his wingman, hehe) Also, once in a relationship, he has something to offer in terms of skills, leadership and enjoyable experiences and he can be connected to his woman without overly clinging to her. Or he can be single and flirt around and just enjoy being comfortable with himself and his masculinity.
Haha no I did not, you can relax Tisha,
you’re not the centre of this universe!
When it comes to these vague certifications, I always question what kind
of education that lies behind it. Nowadays, you seem to be able to get any
kind of certification on the internet in just a matters of hours, even serious
ones where you are responsible for people’s lives such as psychologists,
doctors and psychiatrists. I see nothing wrong in being a coach who
supports another fellow human being since social support is well-studied
and proven to help most people’s lives. I hope You Tisha also take your
own responsibility when you realize that some of your clients are in need
for professional help such as doctors or psychologists and where even
medications are needed “to get them back on their feet”. Talking a few
hours on the phone or via email does not fix one’s neurotransmitters…
So, you can keep practice your well-meaning practice if you promise
yourself to take the responsibility to tell people when you are not enough
authorized to give them advice on crucial life decisions such as health or
economics. I always get pissed off when I see some “coaches” to trick
people off money by just providing a shoulder to cry on and nothing more.
\\ AplAy ///
Look I dont know what your problem is with me or why you feel threatened by my presence here. I dont owe you or anyone else here an explanation of how I conduct my life. I come in here to be with friends, help people and talk about mones. I dont coach here nor have I ever charged anyone here a penny for advice or help. I dont even coach online or on the phone. All my coaching is done in person and its not a full time job for me. Most people who have gotten to know me on this forum know that. I have just as much right as anyone else to give my opinion in this forum but I am the only one you seem to target and who you make crude backhanded remarks about. You can play innocent all you like.
As I told you before when you started crap with me last time… I am open to and respect everyone’s opinion here and I expect the same. I dont care if you agree with my opinion or not. I am not threatened by people with opposing opinions as you seem to be. I enjoy reading other opinions when the people are not taking cheep cowardly shots at me.
So I will ask you kindly, if you dont like what I have to say dont read it and stop the backhanded comments.
Gee thanks for the permission now I can go on with my life 
You wanna know what pisses me off. Ignorant condescending people who think they have the right to judge others.
Go get bent… umm I mean have a nice day
Tisha
PS… Buy A314 you really need it not that it will conpensate for anything.
Feeling threatened by your presence here? Where do you come up with all
that made up bullshit? Let it go (or burn as Usher would have said, LOL!).
I am NOT condescending at all, either you have low self-esteem since you
seem to take everything personally and from a very narrow perspective, or
you are just interpreting things wrong way. I am ONLY skeptical (academic
damage from university) since I know alot of fraud is going on in this world.
I am NOT suggesting you’re fraud or something like that. This is only your
interpretation of my posts. I can now see you seem to be a good person
who means well for other people, that is good, I applaud you for that…
Now, go relax and stop being paranoid about me “having issues” with u or
whatever n ye ur welcome when it comes “permission to go on with life”.
\\ AplAy ///
Youre acting like a douche.
I’m NOT Mr. Cleveland Brown Junior! Stop being so damn sensitive ppl, geez…
Well if you didn’t mean tish then I assume you meant me since I’m the only other person here that I can think of that makes a claim to “coach”.
Yes indeed, and I meant so in a teaseful way, “everyone’s a coach?!” and I
can’t do anything about people’s negative interpretations regarding my posts.
I can imagine the potential usages of mones as a coach since you interact
with people and thus they should become affected by your mones and thus
their perception of you would also slightly become enhanced (hopefully)…
\\ AplAy ///
Well I was coaching before I discovered mones. I’m not certified in anything and I haven’t charged people. People ask for my advice and I give it, Some follow it, some don’t, the ones that have have experienced success and progress.
I don’t pretend to be a psychiatrist or even a therapist and in fact I think a life coach is a totally different thing from either. I haven’t met a life or success coach that claimed to be able to help people with clinical depression or suicidal thoughts or anything more serious like that. A life coach is more about helping a person come up with strategies for improving various aspects of their lives. Psychologists don’t do that, they deal with mental and emotion scarring or actual chemical imbalances.
I wouldn’t ask a shrink to help me get my life in order, nor would I ask a life coach to cure me of thoughts of suicide.
Just like doctors aren’t actually health specialists, but rather disease specialists. If I’m in a cold sweat and throwing up for three days straight I won’t talk to my personal trainer..I’ll see a doctor. But if I need a good workout and diet to gain a few pounds of muscle?..well how many doctors do you know with a six pack that can bench press their own body weight?
In fact when new people come here asking for mones that will cure depression or other serious symptoms I’m usually the one that advises them to seek professional help and not to trust advice from nameless faceless people on the net…it’s too dangerous and I (as I’m sure anyone here would) would feel terrible if somebody followed my advice and it caused them lasting harm. So I stay away from issues best left to professionals.
That said, I DO believe that the psychiatric profession is a little too liberal in answering every problem with medication. It seems like according to our mental health professionals ADHD is as common a problem with kids as the common cold. Every damn kid is on ritalin and every damn adult is on prozac. How the human race made it to 6 billion people when being depressed to the verge of self destructive behavior is almost the norm astounds me.
The program I designed for myself and my own growth and have put…about 23 people on with good to great results is designed to overhaul the life and lifestyle FIRST. I don’t deal with clinical depression, suicidal thoughts, PTSD or anything like that. It’s about changing your diet, surroundings, support system and social circle, setting and achieving goals.
Like I said, I don’t charge, I haven’t written or trying to sell a book. People ask, I answer.
you sure about this? It only happens in third world countries, man
JEEBUS. Theres so much angst on the forum lately. I know we are all better off agreeing to disagree in these cases but there has to be a way to be a way to negate this bickering. Look I dont want to point fingers but Aplay you certainly have a way of being around this forum.
I know it seems unreasonable or infeasible to you but would it hurt to exercise a little common courtesy and perhaps a little tact. I know your gonna think to yourself “sensitivity” “consideration” on a forum -What the hell is he smoking-. Look I know PT or any forum is a bastardized form of communication but nonetheless it is a form of a communication and when angst, hostility, and general malevolence are shown its felt by the community not just the parties involved.
I know people get called out on here from time to time and there will be certain repartee duels when it comes to knowledge or know how on here just try to keep the environment -Im not gonna even say peaceful- workable. Even I’m starting to feel the bad energy on here and I can see why some people stay away from the main forum.