Successful Composition

Hi all,

I’ve gotta question for you mixers out there.

Now when we buy chemsets, putatives, and other non-standard products they are all properly dosed. As in each spray will give you the same consistent number of mcg’s of pheros.

However, I’ve been thinking simlpy mixing them in a bottle and calculating the correct number of sprays might not give the same results as spraying individually.

For example lets say we make the following mix:

1 part -none
1 part -rone
1 part P79
1 part P74

Now, if we composite it in a 5ml to-go bottle, would it likely give out equal amounts of each component? Could some molecules be heavier? Which could mean they get sprayed out first?

Also, lets say the mix is properly dosed. The release rate of different molecules could mean over the long-term the effects of the mix change. Lets say the none and rone ‘burn’ quicker than the other two components which could mean ur left with P79 and P74 acting only. It could explain some of the troubles I’ve been having getting some mixes to work and in some cases explain why I’ve got different reactions to what I was expecting.

Anybody have any thoughts on this matter?

Rattle

The molecules definitely have different ‘weights’. However, all of these molecules must be fairly “light” – right? – or instead of floating on air currents, they would just fall to the floor.

So, the first issue is how does stuff become “airborne” – you can have something which sublimates directly from solid to gas (like dry ice) or you can have a liquid which vaporizes (aka volatiles) like water (which slowly evaporates at room temperature) or alcohol (which evaporates much much faster.)

And the faster something evaporates (more volatile) the more likely it is to have a noticeable odor. Water has a very indistinct odor; alcohol is much more recognizable because it is more volatile.

Dissolving pheromone crystals in perfumer’s alcohol and spraying, you get a very very fine dispersion of molecules on the surface of the skin. You have alcohol evaporating – molecules jumping off of the skin, into the air – and encouraging other molecules to jump, too.

You know that adage about how every perfume or cologne is different on different people? Consider that sweat itself, like water, has almost no distinct aroma. But decaying bacteria in sweat is highly personalized and varies with age, diet, health, mood, etc.

So try spraying some perfumer’s alcohol into a sweaty and stinky armpit. No perfume, just the alcohol. And as the alcohol evaporates, it will help the stinky pit odor molecules to jump off your body and diffuse into a larger and more intensely aromatic cloud around you. What might have been smelled at intensity X only an inch from your armpit might now be 3X intensity from three feet away.


Where all this leads me is to this conclusion:

No, even the motion of picking up the spray bottle should, along with normal molecular activity, keep the solution in the bottle mixed fairly evenly. Let it sit someplace undisturbed for a year or so, and maybe there will be some “fractionation” of the molecules, with the heavier sitting on the bottom. But maybe it would take five years, or ten.

Yes, the molecules you spray in the mix will jump off your body at different rates. My experience tells me that Instant Shine has a much shorter half-life (see below) than A314. I’d love to get people’s estimates of the half-life of various pheros.

Phero Half-Life
Here’s a thought experiment: If I apply five sprays of 20 mcg/spray phero (=100 mcg total) to my … neck … at time = 0:00 … and I somehow am able to measure the “instantaneous evaporation rate” (IER) of my pheros … perhaps just after applying my IER is … suppose it is evaporating at 25 nanograms per second.

At a constant 25 nanograms per second IER, my 100 mcg (= 100,000 nanograms) will totally evaporate in about 67 minutes. (100,000/25 = 4,000; 3600 seconds = 1 hour)

But I say the rate of evaporation is not constant in reality. Sure, things like my body temperature and how windy it is make a difference, but at the beginning I have 100,000 nanograms of phero on my neck, and some time later I have only 50,000 nanos. The more I have to evaporate (at the beginning) the more ~will~ evaporate at that moment in time; later, when I have less left on my neck, fewer molecules will be evaporating.

So, let’s assume that I wait ten minutes for “drydown” … which means that the alcohol that we sprayed with the phero is mostly done evaporating. Let’s call time = 0:10 our benchmark, T(1), and at T(1) my at-rest rate of phero evaporation is IER=X. Some time later, at T(2), my at-rest rate of phero evaporation is IER=X/2.

The difference between T(2) and T(1) is what I am calling the Half Life of a particular phero. It’s how long, excluding initial dry-down, it takes before the effective diffusion of the phero is 1/2 of what it was just after dry down.

Based on my experience, I’d estimate the half-life of various pheros as follows:

Instant Shine: 90 minutes
Alpha-Androstenol: 2 hours
Beta-Androstenol: 2-3 hours
Androstanone: 3 hours
Androstadienone: 4 hours
A314: 5 hours
Androstenone: 8 hours

Note that the times above are HALF life, not useful life. For example, I detect lingering effects of Instant Shine for as long as 3-5 hours after initial dry down, but effects have been much less intense after about 90 minutes.

Half-lives can be linked together – applying this guideline to Instant Shine, it would suggest (using my estimate) that 90 minutes after dry-down, the IS application is now 50% as “effective”, and that after another 90 minutes (assuming the half-life is constant) the original IS application is now about 25% as “effective”, and after about four and one-half hours that would drop to about 12.5% of the original level of activity.

If the half-life of -none is eight hours, then 4 sprays of TUTH at time=T will still be delivering the punch of 1 freshly applied spray 24 hours later.

Thanks Mark. I agree with your estimates of pheromone “half-life.” My experiences are very similar. I always carry a couple premixed (cologne/pheromones) atomizers to refresh later in the day. And I do need to refresh the nols the most. Nols fade quickly, especially here in the tropics. And yes, androstenone is the “everlast” champ. If you apply to clothing, it lasts for days. Rone also is longer lasting than TAA and nols.

Hey MarkL excellent post! Reps to ya. That was a well thought out and informative post :slight_smile:

It’s interesting that most of the products have such a short half-life, it makes ratio calculations a tad more difficult. I have to agree with the half-life of shine it seems to work excellently for upto 2 hours and then just fizzles out.

Being the wealth of knowledge that you are, it would be interesting to know if you knew of any dispersal rates retardants. Something that extends the half-life of the products. I’m sure MHarris is obviously knows a few tricks but he isnt really active on the forums anymore :frowning:

Awesome well constructed post Mark!
I would agree pretty much with those half-life times:-

Instant Shine: 90 minutes
Alpha-Androstenol: 2 hours
Beta-Androstenol: 2-3 hours
Androstanone: 3 hours
Androstadienone: 4 hours
A314: 5 hours
Androstenone: 8 hours

In addition, one thing I have noticed with molecules like Androstadienone and P74 is the following. Both of these molecules do have an impact at like something ridiculously high like 17 hours after application - not huge ‘hits’ necessarily but they are definitely active many many hours after application. I am theorising here that for these two molecules, even at <1 mcg on the skin seem to add something very noticeable…

Also for me some products (like A314) seem to be at their most effective well into the application (for A314 a good 6-7 hours after application I do get good hits for example). Other products (like Instant Shine for me) seem to be at their most effective within two hours of application.

-Visionary

Androtics (link) (https://pheromonelabs.com/) sells Dipropylene Glycol (DPG) in a 30ml dropper bottle which you can add to a mix to slow down dispersion.

Unless I’m mistaken, pure DPG ~is~ the ‘oil’ carrier in A314.

I’ve also used Glycerine USP (from your local pharma shop). Glycerine also ‘warms’ the skin, so it might be a push in terms of diffusion effect.

Try one drop of either in a 5ml spray mix. YMMV

PS: And thanks for all the reps, folks, much obliged, glad it was of use to so many people.

Hey MarkL, thats fantastic, exactly what I was looking for. I’ll try and rep ya again!

Thanks :slight_smile:

Rattle

Very interesting, but is there a way for the big hit (first 90 minutes) to stay constant?, for example my perfect bomination;

1x A314 divided to both wrists
1x ammo on each wrist
3x shine divided over each wrists

i’m a tall guy so i don’t spray it higher on my arms..

but isn’t it possible to spray it, and 90 - 120 minutes later “freshen up”

by washing off your wrists all the way (washing-up liquid or green soap or something and hot water) and then re-applying, or would you still suffer from od ?

Hi there, regarding your combination, I’d say that A314 has a pretty even diffusion rate over a long period of time (upto 8 hours depending on the climate in your region). So no top-up required there.

Ammo, is pretty decent, you can get around 4 hours again this is dependant on your location, might be more or less depending on the humidity.

What I’m suspecting is that the shine burns off, hence it loses effectiveness (which is what happens with me at least). Its burn rate is pretty quick and is only effective for 1-2 hours probably less, 90 mins would be a good estimate.

Ok, so to slow down the shine diffusion you have a few options (these are from my own experience and experiments, it may or may not work for you, ok disclaimer over):

  • Mix a retardant or fixative (Glucam P-20)
  • Mix with a oil based perfume (I prefer sandlewood), this also acts as a retardant
  • Use in a mix, not sure how well this works since its hard to gauge the effects in a 5 component mix, but the effects appear to last longer. But thats just an observation, not a scientfically proven method
  • Buy the extendo versions of shine from the Androtics store

All of the methods above (except the last) will remove the sharp hit you get from shine and dull it down and spread out the effects. So keep that in mind, and that you might need more shine to get the same effects.

Hope this helps.

Rattle

Thanks, that does help. I was covering/mixing in with sun lotion, and I found it difficult to “find” the Ishine effect, maybe because I am so used to the sharp hit effect.

So, I was thinking of another option - carry a little to-go around to freshen up if needs be.

Reps.

Hello Klaas,

My experience is that it is not possible to od on shine, you can spray it on each 2 hours and you can stay ‘constant’, don’t know about the other pheros since i’m a girl..
Saria