Oh, I’m sure you’re right. But hey, you can’t blame a guy for trying. As far as using pheros to get out of the friendzone, yeah, you’re right. Pheros will not make anyone do something they don’t want to do in the first place. However, what you “want” is a complicated thing. Sometimes we don’t realize what we actually want until something wakes us up to it. That’s where pheros can help to give a little push.
No offense taken at all. I agree completely, most guys are just jerks, plain and simple. I should clarify that I’m talking here as someone who isn’t like that. I have no interest in hopping from girl to girl looking for the “next great thing.” So that’s not the perspective I’m speaking from. I am no player. In fact, I’m one of those rare breeds that doesn’t believe in sex before marriage (and I have stuck to my guns so far).
The reason I read materials like Mystery Method (though I disregard canned material because I feel like it’s fake) and David DeAngelo (I love DD’s C+F because it’s more of an attitude than a formula) isn’t because I have any intention or even latent desire to hit the bars and pick up random women. Maybe it’s just a guy ego thing, but I need to be confident that waiting for marriage is MY CHOICE, not a default condition because I’m an AFC and couldn’t get a girl if my life depended on it. I’m happy to say that I’m now at the point where I’m confident that it is my choice.
For me, PUA material is more a study of interaction patterns. I use what I learn with friends in very mild doses, and I find that the patterns just work. Escalation (to a certain point, with my crowd) is possible if desired.
I’m no monk. I have plenty of fun and flirty interactions with girls, good friends who have the same commitment as I do to wait (girls so pure that no amount of PUA material would ever get them to cross the line, and trying would probably just creep them out). The idea for me is the keep things in the attraction phase indefinitely (with a little bit of comfort) with those I find interesting so when I do decide to take things to the next step I won’t find that I’m stuck in friendzone. The key is to remain interesting and fun as a person.
It’s pretty simple. To attract, you must learn to be attractive (and yes, it can be learned). Pheros can help a bit, but they require congruence.
Most people here realize what is real and what is fantasy. But some people don’t…or can’t. They feel like pheros an open all doors for them or use them in place of good hygiene, a sparkling personality, being a success or personal grooming. They can’t and don’t.
I understand men mor ethan I do women and my male friends are constnatly crying to me when they do exactly the opposite of what I’ve told them to do or what I tell them is going to happen with their BS games does happen. Got your car window smashed? I told you to stop with that girl, she’s crazy. Baby’s not yours? I told you not to mess with that girl, she was a ho. I’ve never led my boys wrong, but they are going to let the lower head rule at times and they have to deal. Many times getting in someone’s pants doesn’t always end after the sex is over. You guys can’t see that and then you start complaining when the drama kicks in.
The biggest issue is using pheros as a crutch. Too many people that want to use them don’t have the personality to back them up or the sense God gave them to realize that one day they won’t have them and they’ll have to stand on their own.
I’ve lost many friends to them having feelings for me that I didn’t share. I was selfish for a while and wished they hadn’t told me so we could have stayed friends, but that wouldnt’ have been fair to them. Then again, it had gone past the wanting to have sex with me stage and they were in love with me. I had to let them go, though.
Both my boyfriend and I waited a very long time to lose our virginity (not to one another, though). If I could have waited to be with him only, I would have. There is no shame in it.
For me, I have several women that I’ve dated seriously in the past and managed to become friends with when it’s over. It can be done. A few of them have even stated that in the back of their mind they think it would be nice to get back together with me some day down the road. I’ve also have a few women that I started off as friends with and ended up dating and having a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship with. For me, I don’t play games. I find it’s easier for me just to put all my cards on the table and be done with it early on. It makes it easy for me to work from there. I don’t have a problem being open with them early on as well. I figure if I’m going to ask a boat-load of questions about them and expect an honest answer, then I should be just as honest with them in return. No one likes surprises and not being honest is a big one. There’s no way you can get out of that. If you think the person won’t like the answer you give to a question then so be it – at least you were honest. That goes a long way. I guess I view pheromones differently than some of the people I read here. I’ve never begun a relationship with a woman for sex or anything superficial. I begin them because I like them and I think there’s something special about them inside that I would like to get to know. Sure, good looks attract me initially – and I’m honest about that- but I also know enough to move beyond that to what’s inside or nothing’s going to work. As for wearing pheromones, I’ve had success with women using them as well as not using them. By success I mean I’ve been able to showcase what’s inside of me better with the use of pheromones. That’s why I don’t wear any of the sexual pheromones, just the social ones. I’m not looking to have some woman tear off my clothes and jump me. I tried a couple that came close but I stopped immediately when I saw the reaction I got from some of the women. I really do want someone I can talk too and enjoy getting to know, and spending time with. I’m 50 and I’m dating women in their 40’s. Most are so hurt and jaded because of the way men have treated them that they find it easier to just say “no” to dating all together or leaving men as “friends” while they observe them to see if they’re worth letting them get close. For me I don’t mind this. I like going slow because it helps me get to know them as well. If the woman is a truly good woman, it’s worth my time to spend getting to know her and earning her trust. I want to treat her heart the way I would want her to treat mine. In all my years of dating I’ve had mine stomped enough to where I’m just as cautious as many of the women out there. My two cents. J
Your 2 cents just bought the Mona Lisa. I hate to think that it takes 5 decades of life to get the point, but I know many times it takes 3 or more. Thank you for posting.
Thank you. It actually took a lot me less than 5 decades to learn this lesson. J I grew up a stutterer so I had people at a very early age tell me I would never amount to much because I stutter. It hit home when I was 23. I was very much in love with a woman I wanted to marry. One day her mother looked me in the eye, smiled, and told me I would never be able to make much of my life due to my stuttering. They wanted their daughter to marry a man who could provide for her what I could not due to my stuttering. I had always been good to their daughter, but that didn’t seem to matter. In the end she married who they wanted. The marriage was flop and ended two kids and eight years later. I moved on to date other women. I bring that up to say that as a dumb guy I equate a man who dates only for selfish, shallow reasons, (sex, games, mooching, etc.), is no different from anyone who looks at me and decides I’m not worth much because I stutter. In both cases the person isn’t looking beyond the visual, or superficial. My stuttering has been a blessing to me in a lot of ways because it forces many shallow men and women to play their hand early about how the view me and move on. Am I disappointed? Sure. Because I know there’s more to me than my stuttering. It doesn’t define who I am any more than the use of pheromones defines who I am. My goal has been from my teens not to treat the women I date, (or people in general), the way I’ve been treated. J
I think you can use pheros, or any other gift or talent, for purely selfish ends, or for more altruistic ends- make everybody’s life better; find beauty and value in life and nourish it, and have gratitude, compassion and charity (grace) towards others (and have fun while you are at it- fun is important). The choice is personal, but I think the high road is in the latter. Leave the world a better place than when you came in. I don’t think people who want to use pheros to get girls, without consequence, or whatever are necessarily bad, just spiritually immature. Hopefully everybody will grow wiser.
I agree Daedelus. It’s not the technology that’s bad, but how it’s used that determines its place. To paraphrase NormaJean, you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. I know people you could turn upside down and dip in a vat of pheromones and it wouldn’t help them one bit. They’re still slobs. I’ve read a lot of the posts on this site and there are people like myself who wear them to enhance what’s already in them – not to be something they’re not. I like reading those. I get a lot from them. The others about wanting to get laid I just move on. You’re right, it is a choice. And we make them every day when we decide to get out of bed. I’m glad NormaJean started this thread. I have wanted a detailed woman’s perspective of what they think about pheromone use by men, but hadn’t seen too many of those around. You’re never too old to learn. J
interesting read… I do think pheromones DEFINITELY help one break out of a friend-zone. I know this, because it ALMOST happened to me. I mean too easily! However, I ACTUALLY only wanted to be just friends with them, not the other way around. Using AMMO got them more interested in me… I wad oblivious about it, because I didn’t see them in that way, but when a couple of them came out and said something like how they find me “sexy” and “cool” I knew what was hitting them
Oh and it’s happened to me as well, not with pheromones but with standard PUA stuff.
I mean no disrespect when I say this but when it comes to women I’ll take my advice from men that are successful with women long before I take the advice of a woman. I’m sorry but if I actually followed the advice given to me by some 90% of women I;d be showing up on the doorstep with flowers and candy and going home if I’m lucky with a kiss on the cheek. When I hear a woman say that she only wants a nice guy…and her actions are congruent (love that word) with that statement, I;ll start taking that advice.
The real reason for friendzoning is about confusion between value and attraction.
Mystery and the like (Savoy, Style etc) refer to the attraction switches, I disagree with that concept as they’re actually value switches.
On the flip side, natural game guru Vin Dicarlo differentiates between attraction and value, again I disagree. I prefer to look at attraction simply as another form of value.
Gaining attraction is simply flipping a value switch attached to physical pleasure and or genetic fitness. You can look at these as two separate switches if you like but for general attraction they work fine as one since both are linked to sex.
Focus too much on the physical value or attraction and if you don’t F-close you’ll probably get flaked on. This kind of value is usually dynamic and state based at least at first. So you get a number and later when you call she won’t answer or return your calls since she’s no longer in that state and is now “thinking more logically”. You’ve placed yourself in the lover category and now she’s second guessing if seeing you is a good idea. But since this topic is more about the friend zone I’ll focus on that more.
On the flip side if you focus too much on non physical non sexual value, You will have a hard time F-closing, but she probably will return your calls and see you again. But you never portrayed yourself as a sexual being so in her mind you’re as safe and harmless as a gay guy friend or one of the girls. Only you’ve communicated enough “protector/provider” values to her that she sees that having you in her life can benefit her, and if she can benefit from his value without escalating the relationship sexually she will. A short bald overweight millionaire has tremendous value to a woman, especially if she’s in financial troubles but she won’t feel that raw sexual attraction to him. And a young muscular athlete that knows how to communicate sexual intent has a lot of physical value, but if he’s unemployed and living in his parents basement not only is he only good for sex, but he’s a risky long term investment.
The ideal situation is to DHV the traditional way according to the MM and similar schools of thought, BUT to incorporate some of Vin Dicarlo’s advice on achieving and maintaining sexual tension. Gambler from MasterPUA has some good advice on creating sexual tension as well. By balancing the the provider/ protector value with the physical pleasure and genetic fitness value you can avoid flakes, AND the friendzone.
Rad, your advices are really great! Most guys should read it, haha. Plus, you;re right… don’t really believe what most females say…
Sometimes, no matter what you do, you will get put in a friend-zone… You’re just not that hot or valuable for them… Plus, different girls are looking for different things. Some are looking for security and protection, some are looking for romance , while others are looking for just a little “fun”
I intentionally wanted to be friends with some of these girls … why? I didn’t find them that hot. also, some are my classmates and i didn’t wanted things to go awkward… I don’t know why using something like AMMO suddenly made them express their sexual interest in me though… Isn’t it weird? Out of nowhere they express their sexual desire in me, lol… I guess mones do “magically” spark and create serious attraction sometimes
Yeah, Rad really hits the points well Thanks Rad for the personal input and thanks Cool for bringing this thread up, I hope all goes well with your situation. I myself am a recent victim working out of the friendzone, Rad is great , I can’t advice you much on what to do as I truly have close to no experience with it in real time. By the way, you mentioned when you used ammo with your classmates or friends, they suddenly became attracted to you sexually? How long did you know them before you started using ammo and how long before start of the ammo use did it take for them to flip their switches?
P.S. Cool, I think you should try a couple times with mones to see if that girl you are stuck in the friend znoe with who didn’t give you a call recently, might be interested in you
That quote above about playing games needs a response. I think it’s too simplistic, so ‘mais non’. Playing games is manipulation without purpose ; it’s someone just messing with you for the fun of the messing. Most of the time the point of interacting with girls isn’t about playing games, it’s to get what you (we both?) want.
I do not usually want an extra female “friend”, and especially don’t want “a friend” who has no feelings for me stronger than simple friendship.
I have a finite amount of friends I can handle day-to-day, and I’d rather spend time, emotion and energy with those where there is a connection - a connection stronger than a small/big/dorky/sweet/cute/ “brother”. If a girl wants a kid-brother to discuss “that-new-girl-at-work-who-puts-me-down because-she’s-insecure-and-anyway-everyone-knows-she’s-a-bitch-and-slept-with-Greg-in-sales…” I suggest she pester her parents to make another child. Or gets a cat.
I’m happy to be friends with girls where (if circumstances were different) things might lead to something more interesting than just friends. That sexual tension is wonderfully energizing. But “just friends”? No. It’s usually written “just friends” for a reason; it’s less than the alternative.
If I know a girl is only interested in (yet another) “nice brother” then I’ll move on: nicely, sometimes slowly, sometimes openly, but always eventually. Not because being ONLY friends with girls is wrong, or bad, but simply because life is short and there are far better alternatives.
All that said. Sometimes playing games (especially when you and her are BOTH playing and you both know you know you’re playing) can sometimes be fun in itself.
While they do not rob one of free will, they also do more than just enhance what is already there. I can and do routinely use pheromones to create arousal or turn it off, regardlss of whether it is present otherwise. Pheromones cause subconscious responses, which can be likened to embers. You can turn a tiny spark of interest into a raging bonfire if you have enough information and know how. The pheromones alone can create that spark, and under the right circumstances, can even fan it into flames!
The reason that what I say seems counter-intuitive is twofold.
First, people don’t want to lose their illusion of being in complete control of themselves. The truth is, we’re practically asleep 90% of the time we are “conscious”, and we run on auto pilot (which means genetic and subconscious programs).
Second, because it takes such accurate and specific knowledge of which pheromones to use, in what dosages, and when, and how, and around whom, that unless you have some way to know these things, you’ll be missing the target most of the time. That “missing the target” doesn’t mean it can’t be done - it just means that knowing such specifics is required to hit it.
That said pheromones alone aren’t all you need to deal with and successfully attract a thinking woman for more than a fling, or fun, etc. We as humans still respond to pheromones, but we also have a lot of cerebral input and emotional input and societal input to consider.
