First, no one was attacking anyone, and I’d like that to be clear. I was just inviting Meow to be straight about what he wanted to talk about. I probably was too head on about it, but I hoped he was mature enough to engage it. What I saw was him trying to get everyone else to say what he was unwilling to say.
About your analogy… the difference is you pay a doctor only when you (not you, personally, you in general) have too, and are pretty irate about the costs each and every time. Sure, they both make you feel better hopefully. The difference is most people don’t feel a need to justify seeking out a doctor because you only go when you absolutely have to, and you don’t throw your hard earned cash at them for an illusion of well-being. And you don’t have nearly as much potential for becoming addicted to going to see the doctor as you do to the drug-like allure of prostitution.
Most of the prostitute’s illusion isn’t about sex at all.
The illusion: Here is a beautiful woman who is spending time with you, and who really is interested in what you have to say (if you want to talk) and will support and agree with any opinion you have, who lavishes praise and attention on you, and who you may even come to believe cares deeply about you.
And she will do everything in her power to foster the illusion and make you believe that she really likes you, really truly cares about you, and wouldn’t charge you except that she has to (kids, bills, the house payment she can’t make, etc.).
She will do everything in her power to create an addiction in you and will do everything in her power to milk you dry (of your money). Once the money is gone, so is your access to this person who convinced you that you are worth the attention of someone who is as gorgeous and as perfect in every way as she is.
It’s fool’s gold and if you are lucky this is all it will be. If you are unlucky and fall into the hands of the wrong person, and are fooled into giving her your personal information and some proof that you’ve seen her, she may blackmail you, threaten your standing in society, threaten your job, threaten your marriage, and take everything from you that she can.
Prostitutes are players and parasites. They are the women’s answer to the Mystery Method, except where male players want sexual conquest, prostitutes want men’s money. And they are expert at getting what they want. And it is obviously successful or this wouldn’t be the oldest profession in the world.
Meow, I think it’s a great thread with a lot of great responses. I disagree with a lot of it, but agree with other parts. Large parts of this forum are devoted to what it means to be a man or a woman in today’s world. It’s hard to imagine that a thread asking if and why men ‘love’ prostitutes would not bring a wide diversity of opinion and thought.
Without having read this whole thread like some other people… I find the difference between the first and last pages to be amazing. From “Why to guys like prostitutes?” to “Why do certain men behave in certain ways?” (That’s what way I see the last pages as being, anyways.) I for one would be flattered to have created a 13-page thread that started with a mere few sentences as a starting post, even if it did meander away from it’s original purpose. Meow doesn’t, but then again I too would probably be annoyed with the countless emails I’d be getting to inform me of a new post having been made on the thread. So I humbly congratulate Meow for having laid the ground-work for such a vibrant thread, and also apologize for the rather blunt wording I have used in regards to him.
Can a beta male also be an alpha male? Specifically I see this in regards to personal experiences with group projects, where the quietest member who previously followed obediently finds themselves best skilled for a particular task, and then unassumingly gaining control of the entire project due to their perfectly-suited set of strengths. I’ve seen this happen before, and it seems that often times these same people gain a little bit of confidence from this one occurrence, and thereafter seem to always be “in control”. Or maybe that’s just a transition from beta to alpha altogether?
My personal take on this thread’s original purpose in relation to prostitution is that a beta would never seek out a prostitute. A prostitute might satisfy one or many goals that they might have but it also has a low rate of return of respect from their peers. It also requires them to brush aside society, whom they rely upon, in order to meet their own wants and desires. And alpha would have no problem doing that. That’s not to say that they don’t realize they could just as easily achieve the same outcome through other means, they just made up their mind that day to hire a prostitute and pulled the trigger on that decision. They’re in control, and they’ll do what they want, thank you very much.
PUA… do pickup routines really work? I’ve never even used one. Heck, I’ve never even asked for a girl’s number. Any number I get from a girl was given to me, then we go from there. Heck, half the time I’m told I intimidate them senseless, they’re more worried about doing wrong than anything else in the world. And here I am, showing up to the first date in pajamas just 'cause I woke up kinda late and didn’t bother taking a rushed shower.
I would have to disagree with that. Maybe I’m off on the men I would call alpha, but I would bet JFK, Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin and countless others have used prostitutes.
oh, I was no way insinuating that you were attacking anyone. If it came off that way, I apologize. My excuse, it was late and I was sleepy. xD I merely tried to make it sound like you were being blunt and sometimes that can rub people the wrong way. Apparently I didn’t do a very good job.
Yea, my analogy was pretty weak. Just tried to get the point across that for escorts and prostitutes, it IS a job and their goal is to get money from you. I suppose dag’s analogy was better with drugs. I suppose its kind of like selling drugs. Sell good product that customers like and they come back. Both professions require discretion for obvious reasons and generally like cash. Their customers have fairly specific needs who generally also like discretion. xD
Don’t you think “only” is a bit too… restrictive? Maybe “mostly” would work better
Besides, there’s not many people who would be willing to speak up and say “hey, I consider myself an alpha male and I’ve used a prostitute.” Especially since one of the biggest reasons for using a prostitute is discretion.
/edit
Eh, thought came up but I forgot to add it. Prostitutes are used frequently in times of war for soldiers although its not really something that they’ll admit to. An army filled with mostly men gone for 6months to a year at a time? There’s a need being satisfied right there. I’m sure there are a few alpha male soldiers in there that have used a prostitute…
I don’t think the Mystery Method and prostitution are at all related, and definitely prostitution is not the answer to it.
The Mystery Method is just an attempt to analyze and manipulate social interactions, the goal is different for everyone. While some men look to the mystery method to be an aid in their deisre for sexual conquests, other men simply turn to it as an aid to improve their social skills (both for sexual attraction and for social attraction). Many of the guys that I know use the mystery method are actually the latter, while the ones who seek mainly sexual conquests are naturals. I don’t know if this is just my observation or if there is a corelation, but then again I only know a few guys that use the mystery method or other similar methods and none of them use it very religiously.
I think the mystery method is not necesarily de-humanizing (even if its creator is arguably a bit insensitive), but it definitly can be. It is more of what the user does with it. Maybe Steve can add more to this since he is more familiar with the whole PUA psychology. I am more of a person who uses bits and pieces of the theory mainly to give me a bit of a leg up in getting to know people.
Wait back to the prostitute topic, many men who are considered “alpha” end up with women that are clearly “gold diggers” is this not the same concept as prostitution?
Okay, I will agree that alpha/beta males lie on a continuum from a guy being purely beta (anxious, neurotic, follower, fearful, clown) to purely alpha (truthful, upstanding, leader, faithful, no-nonsense). And I will give you that someone may feel they are an alpha male and still see a prostitute.
But for me, someone using a prostitute would automatically lower them in my eyes to definite beta status. Why? The reasons are many.
In order for a guy to be able to use a woman as a commodity means he is a user who sees some people as disposable. Alpha males are not users. If you are not up to their standards they move on. They don’t use you and cast you aside.
A person who goes to a prostitute risks so much for a quickie fix. Alpha males are not impulsive and they regularly put off their urges, take a longer view, and don’t risk their careers, relationships, family, and social status in ridiculous things like this.
Alpha males are not afraid of commitment… it is part of the definition of alpha… they commit not only to others but to society and to themselves. Again a reason they don’t use prostitutes, they know it would cheapen themselves to do so, and invalidate the commitments they’ve made.
Using a prostitute is a good ol’ boy thing to do. But good ol’ boys are all betas, even those who are somewhat successful in terms of making money, even those who are charming enough to get a following through manipulation and deceit, and even those who are attractive to a bunch of beta type women.
When you ask an alpha male if he’d ever consider going to a prostitute your answer will likely be, “Are you out of your mind?” Even asking the question of an alpha male would likely lessen your standing in his eyes.
And yes, I know quite a few alpha males, and many, many more betas.
Who would consider these guys alphas? I wouldn’t. Anyone who goes for superficial prettiness over substance is not an alpha. Remember that a true alpha male has his choice of women. He chooses the best. In a beta’s eyes the best has to do with looks only, because beta’s are about illusion, being worried about appearances, and about showing off that he has more than the next guy. Betas are not about substance or real value.
True alpha don’t concern themselves with appearances because they hold themselves to be valuable. They don’t compete with “things” including a pretty girlfriend, because there is no competition with them.
Alphas don’t compete. Betas compete. Alphas lead. Betas follow. Alphas commit. Betas are always looking for the next best thing.
I think the biggest problem here is of semantics. Almost everyone here tends to take as a definition of the alpha male what has been written by the PUA group. I’d tend to classify all this material as “pseudo-alpha male” characteristics. And that is just from my own knowledge of the true leader types I’m around, and I’m around quite a few of these types. Reading the PUA “alpha male” hype, though, is very different. It seems like it should be “How to become the most successful at being a beta you can be” … not becoming an alpha male!
This is my definition of an alpha male’s characteristics:
Optimistic
Need to perform at their best at all times
Ability to see opportunity and take successful advantage of it
High degree of internal control
High ability to tolerate ambiguity
Goal oriented
High self esteem, not dependent on external, transitory circumstances
Courageous
Strong internal motivation
Dedicated to Community
Dedicated to Family
Dedicated to Country
Both strong and good character
Lacks impulsiveness
Lacks a need to impress others
Places value in people rather than things
As you can see, this list is wholly different from the scrabbling for placement that is inherent in the “alpha male” definitions put out by PUA literature.
Ahh… gotcha. I guess I had separated morals from being alpha or not. You seem to see an alpha as one that has morals and follows them. I guess I question why morals should even play into being an alpha, as who decides morals anyway? Society. And most of society is, as I see it, beta.
In my mind, I see an alpha as being something of Freud thing involving the Id, Ego, and Super-Ego. I see an alpha as having an Ego that is dominant. It knows exactly what it wants from the other two and gets exactly that, nothing else. That’s not to say it’s Ego pulls heavily from Id and acts on impulses and desires alone. It could pull heavily from the Super-Ego as well, having a strong, unbreakable set of morals. Using this definition of an alpha makes things a bit easier… as there are leaders of all types, good and bad, that pull from either their Id or Super-Ego.
I agree with Diane on how I personally rate people. An Id-obsessed alpha cannot be an alpha for long, and often their desires pull them down to a sub-alpha level. A Super-Ego alpha, which is the persona I have assigned to my own father, is much more of the type of person I like to identify with. It’s the reason why, for example, my first order from this site was Instant Gentleman versus something “dirty”.
dapg01 has a point… many of these “idealized” marriages with trophy wives and whatnot tend to have men that are considered alphas. Think about it… they’ve got things lots of guys want. Money, nice homes, beautiful wives, great jobs, and people love to be around them. They fit the description of an alpha I used… they’re in control of what they want. Where they don’t fit is in a rigorous definition of what an alpha is. (aka No self-respecting alpha would ever get a trophy wife, they should live more modestly, etc.)
I can see where you might hold the beliefs you do about morals being dictated by society, and to some extent they are. But not always.
For example, I myself grew up in a pretty fucked up environment with two very self absorbed, selfish, and amoral people, and a large family of siblings who, with the exception of myself and two sisters, are all the same. Today what is left of my family (other than those two sisters and myself) is embroiled in affairs, drugs, misery, and poverty. That was my society growing up.
Yet for some reason, I’ve always held that right is right and wrong is wrong. I’ve always done my best to live a moral life, kept faith with my friends, and done my best in every regard. Away from my family, I was always leader of my pack, in high school, for example, when I was young, and later when I was in college. I was a member of the high school’s legislative body, president of several clubs, a cheerleader, member of the school’s newspaper, a member of the Honor Society, and a straight A student. I’ve always taken a longer, larger view, and other than age appropriate mistakes, I’ve never been impulsive. I always strove to be the best that I could be in every way, and I excelled in everything I put my hands to (with the exception of sports, because of asthma).
And other than the years when I was married to a very bad man, I’ve done relatively well with my life. Doors open for me, and people respond to me well, no matter where I go. I don’t compete, and don’t really understand people who do. In person I get my way without really trying.
See now pupy you brought up some of my favorite subjects and I couldn’t stay away LOL You can take your thanks back if you like
I agree… Alpha Beta dynamics can very much be linked to Freud’s theory of Id, ego and Super ego although even Freud admitted in later years that his theory had holes. His findings are very much more in relation to his theory on the Oedipus complex.
We are all born with the Id personality and as we grow it evolved into the Ego and Super Ego personality. Some degree of the Id personality always stays with in the sub conscious and is part of our survival instinct. Beta’s tend to keep that part of their personality in the conscious mind more.
Darwin’s theory of Hierarchy in relations to Freud’s theory took that one step further… The survival of successfully breeding male (alpha male) is dependent on his ability to control his sexual, emotional and aggressive drives. To control his Id impulses.
I agree with a majority of Diane’s list above but some of those characteristic’s do not define a Alpha but are instilled because they are a Alpha to begin with. I don’t believe Alpha men are all moral but have great control over there Id personality.
We also have to consider that society and the hierarchy is changing with females holding a higher position on the scale then in previous years or seen in other primate groups.
I don’t consider these men as Alpha’s except maybe for JFK, Even though I would not consider them Alpha’s I don’t believe they had to seek out prostitution. They had money and status and like I pointed out before while most Alphas achieve this, it is because they are Alphas to begin with that they do. Having it doesn’t make them the Alpha.
This is true and if you look at it from what pupy brought up its possibly the Id part of the personality working from the subconscious mind that causes the lack of control on the Alphas part. But for the Alpha male to survive as Darwin pointed out he has to have control over those aspects and as pupy suggested …
In the eyes of society when you observe male who is with a gold digger there Alpha status automatically declines.
I think the sociological aspect and the Alpha / Beta Dynamic is a large part of why its illegal and considered immoral. Those instinctual parts of us are part of what dictates what we consider right and wrong as humans.
Steve and I have discussed PUA a lot over the years. He is very knowledgeable on the subject. Both of us have many times talked about how people who study PUA should incorporate some of the principles into there socialization but that to many guys try to totally adapt and conform to it leading to poor execution.
I other words what you are doing Dap is great. Your taking some of the principles that you can effectively use and applying them to your social situations and not conforming your whole life to it.
Its just my opinion but if the Alpha male did see a prostitute I agree they would be discrete about it. My contention is they don’t seek them for a few reasons though. They hold themselves had a higher standard and they simply don’t have to because why pay for what they can get free. Women flock to the alpha so they basically can get those needs met easily.
I noticed what your saying about men in the military though. I mentioned my Father who is a alpha told me he visited prostitutes in the war and my BMF who served in Vietnam and is extremely Alpha to a annoying degree (snort) also said it was the only time he needed to seek out prostitutes. He also pointed out "All’s fair in love and war " LOL
Meow, I would like to thank you as well for bringing up this subject. It may have not gone the way you expected but it really is a fantastic and interesting conversation and no one is judging you for you opinions. They are valued in the conversation as well. Don’t take the subject of Alpha and beta as a personal insult. There is nothing wrong with being either. Its all part of our social structure and humanity. One can not exist without the other.
Haha keep it! It’s a present, you’re supposed to keep it. I’m actually glad someone enjoys all that stuff as much as I do.
You’re right about Freud… in his later years he did admit to some faults. But where his arguments and theories fall apart he succeeded as a philosopher I think… he got other people thinking, even if it was merely to contradict everything he was saying. And more importantly he succeeded at creating a model of the human behavior, even though it wasn’t perfect.
The Oedipus complex is actually an interesting factor… Since supposedly every male has one, alpha or beta. That would explain the seemingly large use of prostitutes during war time. But also, this coming from a friend in a military academy, the “one girl per every ten guys or worse” ratio would seemingly drive just about any male a little girl-crazy. (Those were his words, by the way.) And once you’ve endured this conditions, I would think it shouldn’t be all that unusual to become at least a little excited. And in an environment where the Ego and Super-Ego are doing all of the work (following orders), I could see the Id building up some stress and needing an outlet. (This is ignoring the fact that Id would likely be the one “doing the killing”.)
And you had a good point about alphas being the only type to admit to their actions. That’s something along the lines I was thinking. There may be no scientifically justifiable conclusion to the question of which type employs prostitution. Next to no betas would ever admit to it, and the few alphas that have would gladly answer truthfully. A better question might be which have actually thought about using a prostitute… I’d be willing to put money on betas thinking a lot more about it (but then consequently far fewer actually going through with it), while only a small group of alphas thought about it (and a high percentage of those actually followed through).
Agreed. It’s like a professional football player… they may have all of the money, all the fast cars, and all of the pretty women, but when it comes time to work only the quarterback and a couple others actually lead the team. In fact, the coach of the team often carries the most respect from all sides, and yet they typically aren’t known to be the type to chase trophy wives or flaunt their money with expensive cars. They’re the real alpha in this situation (hopefully). The team owners who pay that one person’s salary probably isn’t even close to being an alpha. Afterall, they’re not paying the coach to build them a new driveway, they’re paying for leadership.
So I humbly congratulate Meow for having laid the ground-work for such a vibrant thread, and also apologize for the rather blunt wording I have used in regards to him.
