Why Men Love Prostitutes

Lounge
161

[quote=“diane999, post:160, topic:29990”]

[quote=“Julia, post:158, topic:29990”]

“Well let’s see, a two year old sees something he wants and takes it. If another toddler has it he pushes the toddler down, making him cry, and takes it. Well, that sounds like Chicago the past few weeks. If your neighbor decided to cut loose and you didn’t and he liked your car, and took it… or liked you and took you… I don’t think you’d like that very much.”

Well if you assume I think “a free for all” is what I was referring to maybe go back and read my last post.

“Gay boys were in the past notorious for their free-wheeling sex styles, multiple partners, bath houses, etc. HIV and rampant STD’s in that community put a brake on that one. I lost two very good friends to that lifestyle and I miss them both every day.”

So why not legalize gay marriage? maybe if the lifestyle wasnt soo “taboo” in most cities, the backlash of repression (which always happens) come back into balance, and have a respectable place.

"I guess my point is that immature urges for the most part are really selfish and destructive. The person who is immature doesn’t see it that way.

He steals from his employer and thinks its no big deal because the employer has lots of money.

He has affairs on his wife and lies to her and thinks it is no big deal because what she doesn’t know won’t hurt her."

When he is caught stealing, fucking around, or bringing gonorrhea home to his wife, he is resentful and still thinks it is no big deal. Even as he is sentenced, is thrown out of the house, divorced and not allowed to see his kids, etc., he thinks what he did was no big deal."

Diane, I dont know about this charactor here, but he sounds an awful lot like my father and there was not a law created preventing him from doing any of the above, nor will there ever be.

162

Well, I guess you are talking about laws, and it never entered my conversation. I was always talking about alpha behavior being based on mature personality characteristics and beta behavior being based on immature personality characteristics. I thought I cleared that up when you first posted your objection to my use of the term “social morality.”

I have never felt that repression is the root of maturity. And maturity is the basis of society and community. And if you are gay and mature, way to go, I’m here rooting for you. If you are straight and immature, I have no use for ya… sorry if that is harsh.

Diane

163

“I have never felt that repression is the root of maturity. And maturity is the basis of society and community. And if you are gay and mature, way to go, I’m here rooting for you. If you are straight and immature, I have no use for ya… sorry if that is harsh.”

Diane, I want to be clear, I am referring to repression not as the root of maturity, but as a byproduct of many societal agreements (laws). The reversal of many of these outdated agreements (most of which stem from organized religion) is bound to happen (again gay marriage, legalizing pot etc.). My question is this, if prostitution did become legal, the women tested for stds and taxed, would that be SOO awful, certainly would be less taboo.

The last time I checked Holland was not on the verge of anarchy or collapse. The interesting thing is it is well known that most of the patrons of the red light district are from other countries.

164

Okay, I’ll engage this conversation.

On the one hand I feel that this country has way too many federal laws restricting behavior. On the other hand, tragically, there is a real need for most of them.

The way this country was set up was to protect individual and state rights from the tyranny of the federal government and much of our constitution is based on that premise - to keep the government out of our lives. But even Benjamin Franklin knew it wouldn’t last, and that corruption would creep in and that laws would have to be enacted to curb that corruption, and the freedoms intended by our forefathers would be lost.

The reason why this very smart man knew the Republic that he and others set up for us wouldn’t last is because he knew that the majority of people are not mature, upstanding individuals who hold the common good higher than their own desires. That was the ideal, but even he knew it wasn’t practical, and that as soon as base desires gained power, the Republic would, by necessity, be weakened by every law enacted.

And because it is inherent in the way the Republic was set up that everyone has equal access, and equal power, it was inevitable that it would sink to the lowest common denominator. It is the fly in the ointment that a country like ours with the most freedoms would also eventually become the most restrictive to curb those freedoms, when (in corrupt hands) they begin to harm others. (This is why comparison to other countries doesn’t really apply.)

Every law on the books was put there because someone felt there was a need for it, fought for it, and got it passed by the majority. These laws did not come into being in a vacuum, but were born out of someone’s perceived necessity to curb some freedom that someone felt hurt others, or to create special dispensation or protection for some group or another. And once on the books laws are notoriously hard to remove/recind.

What is the solution? I don’t know. I’d like to see every law (except the constitution) repealed every fifty years and our legislators put to work creating new laws that are appropriate for our time. But equally, I’d like to see a huge social movement that glorified maturity and the good of the whole, rather than our current glorification of the eternal youth and the grasping at material gain above all else.

Diane

165

I agree with you here 100%.

I am hopeful and optimistic that we can change our priorities as a nation, and for me (and countless others) Obama represents the willingness of many people who are sick and tired of the old guard.

166

But, let’s get back to your question. I’ll break it down.

“…if prostitution did become legal…” Prostitution has been legal in various forms in this country during various times. It was made illegal for valid reasons, namely, the prevention of trafficking in humans, and to prevent wide spread of contagious diseases. It has also, at various times, been decriminalized. The history of prostitution in this country goes back to colonial days.

“…[if] the women [were] tested for stds…” Testing alone does not solve the problem. Even if a test were to be 99.9% sensitive and 99.9% specific for a disease (and none are this good) it would give you a lot false negatives in this very high risk group. And then there is the problem of HIV where there can be a window of 6 months were a person is infected and contagious, but showing no seroconversion antibodies. In a population that is this much at risk with so much opportunity to spread disease, testing is not the answer.

“…and [if they were] taxed…” Not sure what this has to do with prostitution being taboo. Maybe you can enlighten me?

"***… ***would that be SOO awful?] [C]ertainly [it] would be less taboo." Laws often reflect morality, but they don’t create it. And laws are generally enacted to protect those who are being victimized by the thing being regulated. In this case the two reasons I cited above, human trafficking and STDs, both fall into this category.

The reason there is a need for laws in this regard is because people who visit prostitutes don’t consider or care about the health risk they put themselves and their families in, and if they visit multiple prostitutes - the health dangers they expose those girls to.

They also do not consider or care about the misery of those girls who are there working, not of their own free will, but because they are forced to, and they don’t consider or care about how their patronage to these places supports and enables the continuation of it. (I know that not all prostitutes fall into this category of human traficking, but enough do that it keeps the feds very busy year round in this country fighting it, especially with regards to Asian massage parlors.)

If you visit any world history page on prostitution you will find that the earliest laws the world over prohibiting this were enacted after disease outbreaks. It wasn’t until much later that laws around prohibiting it on grounds of immorality were enacted. And it wasn’t until much later that anti-trafficking laws were enacted.

Men who visit prostitues have an urge and they scratch it. It is the fact of being impulsive in such a way that endangers others that is immoral. It is the total disregard for the welfare of others that is immoral. And the fact that many do their best to disguise this impulsivity and selfishness and desire to have stranger sex as a character trait of all men, and convince others of that, is immoral.

And these things are not imposed on anyone by law or anything else. But the laws were put in place to protect the public from the consequences of these things.

Diane

167

“***… ***would that be SOO awful?] [C]ertainly [it] would be less taboo." Laws often reflect morality, but they don’t create it. And laws are generally enacted to protect those who are being victimized by the thing being regulated. In this case the two reasons I cited above, human trafficking and STDs, both fall into this category.”

The only way to regulate this is to moniter human trafficking and test for stds, NO it is not 100% but, its better than being completely in the dark.

“Men who visit prostitues have an urge and they scratch it. It is the fact of being impulsive in such a way that endangers others that is immoral. It is the total disregard for the welfare of others that is immoral. And the fact that many do their best to disguise this impulsivity and selfishness and desire to have stranger sex as a character trait of all men, and convince others of that, is immoral.”

Why not bring these men into plain site, why does everything need to be so hidden in this country? The fact that many men seek varying outlets does not mean that they all do. And assuming he is single, what is wrong with scratching an itch?? He’ll do it whether it is legal or not, he may as well do it safely, no-one deserves the worst, no matter how addicted/demented or mean.

“And these things are not imposed on anyone by law or anything else. But the laws were put in place to protect the public from the consequences of these things.”

I trust in myself to make the best possible decision regarding my sexual choices and am able to face any consequences. I trust in my partners ability to make the best possible choice for himself and his ability to face any consequenses, I am not bound in fear for either my choice or his. When I look at Amsterdam, I dont see a city of fear living in negative consequences, I see a quaint and beautiful city of people unbound by puritanical misconceptions, possibly they are more enlightened or “mature.”

168

That is nice that you are trusting and don’t fear any consequences from things you can’t control. And if you are a good judge of character and find a partner who would never put your health in jeopardy, that would be wonderful.

But the fact is that there are many men (and women) who pretend to be other than what they are, who do, indeed put their partners at risk.

If there were not, there would never be a married man visiting prostitutes; the men who did choose to see prostitutes would remain single and not have sex you or other women outside the “industry;” and women in the “industry” would have sex only with those who paid them.

Most of the public does not share your willingness to deregulate prostitution and put the public more at risk. The laws are ineffective, but they are better than nothing at limiting the amount of prostitution that goes on.

And as far as risk goes, prostitution is a little different from just being someone who has had multiple partners. When you are talking about even a few dozen partners or more over a lifetime, that isn’t much compared to the hundreds of men prostitutes have sex with each month.

Diane

169

i’ve been gone for a few days and wow a lots happened. i’m glad to see that more people have gotten into this topic. but i am also concerned once again at what else has happened. you see my original intent for this thread was to have a place where a lot of people could feel free to express their opinions about this topic. it started off well but quickly became a 4 way argument. i then realized that this was futile so then i left for a few days and more people came around…then once again it’s become a closed argument but this time Julia has taken my place apparently. here’s the thing guys…
1.no one feels comfortable speaking their mind here if they have to spend 3 pages defending their views.
anyone else noticed how i’m the only male that’s posted here in like what the last 3 or 4 pages?
2. please don’t say you’re just having a “discussion” when you’re clearly arguing..that’s just insulting.
3. “I think the issue here is age / generation difference between you people that are arguing. Different values for different generations.”-MP this was the most insightful thing anyone has said recently. now think about this…and i mean really think about it..take your ass away from the computer..take a deep breath and really think about it.

and to those with itchy keyboardfingers: don’t bother telling me that i took something the wrong way as you will just be proving #1, and no i won’t respond to you either: once again see #1

to MP: awesome insight man…yes you, me, and julia, and i believe several of the other men here are gen Y..possibly the most confused generation yet.

to Julia: you have a good head on your shoulders. don’t worry about finding good guys :slight_smile:

to theattractor, zeph, dap and all the guys: where did ya’ll go? come on put some of your views on here.

170

Meow, I agree, its been like debating with my best friends mother who is very fixed in her ways (my mother is European and her point of view is similiar to mine), but other than that perhaps it is generational.

My intention is not to win, in fact my views are so unpopular on this forum, and in much of this country that I expected more people to be arguing with me here.

I would like to inspire people to read this post and maybe just maybe start thinking about things a little differently, outside of any “box” of right and wrong and more inside themselves.

171

Wow, thanks for the dis. And here I thought we were discussing our divergent views like adults. I’ll remember not to answer your direct questions to me in the future so as to not be put in the box of “mom.”

But yes, I’ll agree that our different view may be generational. I’m GenX, you know the ones who were raised by the “Is it Me or is it ME?” generation. Selfishness and disregard for others is generally something GenX’rs loathe, having been brought up with it and its consequences and having to fight the society that embraced it. Of course our kids wouldn’t have a clue what that was about, having never had their needs put forever last (or never), having never been put at risk by selfish neighbors, family, etc., because they had GenX parents who gave a crap.

Diane

172

I decided to leave this thread alone, pretty much. Here’s why. The mentality of the pheromone community has quite a bit of overlap with the seduction community (sites like Ask Men, So Suave, Double Your Dating, etc). And if there’s anything the seduction community despises with a passion is paying for sex. So that’s why there’s so much hostility on this site against people who admit to supporting prostitution, let alone taking part in it. While we need a little controversy once in a while, this is not a discussion I’d want to get myself into. I generally limit my use of this site to reporting results from pheromones, asking for advice about them, and occasionally writing about something I think could be interesting (like getting stronger hits during certain moon phases).

This thread reminds me of something that happened in the past. I started a thread about confidence. Namely, about why telling someone to just “be more confident” is counterproductive. Well, I got shitloads of hostility about it. People started making assumptions about my character, accusing of “making up crap”, and what have you. The thread ended up splitting into two factions: a group supporting my view, and a group supporting the opposing view. In the end, I benefited from it somewhat, but it didn’t head anywhere near the direction I expected. I’m seeing similar things here: hostility flying in all directions, the thread splitting into two camps, and people walking away because they’ve had enough. The only difference is that I didn’t make the first post.

I’ve never been with a hooker, although I’ve had lap dances where you can touch. However, I think making prostitution legal is ultimately for the best. If a man wants to pay for sex, he will find a way to do it. But if it’s legal, it’s hell of a lot safer. A woman can work in a clean hotel room, knowing she can turn to the police if a client threatens her. A man can get his needs taken care of without worrying about getting robbed or beat up. (This is how a lot of escort agencies in Europe operate, actually.) All the problems Diane pointed out are happening partially because paid sex is illegal. Legalizing it will reduce the frequency of those problems. And if vice cops lose their jobs as a result, well, too bad so sad.

To lighten things, here’s a joke. If “pro” and “con” as opposites, what’s the opposite of “constitution”?

173

Actually, I would compare it to a massage. Sure an aplha could get his flocks of women to give him a massage, but if you want a good one, you go to a pro. There doesn’t have to be a “connection”, other than her being friendly. I agree that alphas would be less likely to learn that “pros” are more skilled. I kinda thought some women would take offence at being told they weren’t as skilled, but it is true and it only stands to reason.

I’m only mildly curious about this alpha/beta thing, but if alphas are so independent and free thinking, why do they care so much about being seen going to a prostitute? Why are they so concerned about what others think?

174

It isn’t about being seen by anyone or caring what others think that keeps an alpha away from prostitutes. It seems impossible for some of you to grasp that some men don’t even consider it, would never consider it, and have refused to go when buddies have suggested it. To some people (I’m referring to them as alphas, you can call them whatever you like) going to a prostitute is low behavior, behavior that is out of character for them. My husband falls into this category, as do most of the men I know.

This is my last point and then I’ll leave this alone. If you feel the laws are unfair or don’t reflect what you want, do your best to change them. Children sit around and whine about what their parents did. Adults do something to bring about changes.

If you are right that these laws are outdated and do not reflect today’s morals and ideology it should be relatively easy for you to get the old laws repealed and new ones instituted.

Diane

175

i agree with you..i honestly didn’t realize that there were so many polar personalities on here. in my humble opinion i think this comes from bad social skills…i mean seriously can you imagine having this discussion like this in the real world? hell no…someone would have gotten bitch slapped already. this is how it works in the real world…someone says something, if you don’t agree with it, you ask them to give you REASONS why they have that view…then you go hmmm and think whether those reasons are valid or not. you don’t hang on to your view like it’s god’s word or something. i think that’s really the division we are seeing…one side has very rigid(star wars episode III sith) type views and they think they are right no matter how much is brought out to the contrary, and the other side has a more fluid view that they are willing to adapt in light of new information. call it the know-it-alls vs. the truth seekers fight if you will

176

dude there’s been so much hypocritical bullshit on this thread it’s not even funny. think about it: supposedly an alpha male is someone that has in internal locus of control meaning they get their happiness from within instead of looking towards others for any sort of judgment. now a person that doesn’t have to look into the world around them…well what’s stopping them from being a selfish dick? why would a guy like that give a dam about stabbing his best friend in the back or cheating on his wife? after all he gets his happiness from within himself and the suffering of others doesn’t effect him right? the notion of alpha male being emotionally independant yet morally upstanding makes no dam sense.

177

Huuh?? An alpha male is one because he is not dependent on other people for joy and inner happiness. How could that in any way mean that he doesn’t care for other people? To the contrary: He is able to give without expecting or needing something in return. And why would someone happy and independent feel the need to stab his wife or best friend??

The things that have been said about the ‘alpha persona’ on this thread aren’t ‘hypocritical bullshit’, you just don’t get what it means, or otherwise you wouldn’t be able to pose such absurd theories like the ones in this post of yours. :slight_smile:

BTW, I don’t consider myself being very much of an alpha male, but I see becoming one as very worthwhile.

178

Whats with all this Alpha versus Beta nonsense, stereotyping peoples behavior is a form of prejudice that can form damaging or misleading images of people. Look at history high class versus low class, christians versus heathen non believers, black versus white.

I believe you are all going to far with this Alpha Beta thing, human behavior cannot so easily be contained within these two groups. Its like saying well so and so is a Leo and would not do such a thing but someone born under Scorpio would visit prostitutes. But if Capricorn has the moon under his uranus well then he is more easily influenced. Lol

Lets lighten up on this Alpha Beta thing and get a bit more real.:slight_smile:

179

I’ve been more concerned about SOME of the things that have been said about Betas. If using the wolf pack or primate community models, and that’s after all where the terms come from, the Beta is the animal one step away from being the Alpha. That’s hardly a weak or degenerate position. While it might not be optimal for producing offspring with multiple females, it’s not a weakness. Whether Alpha or Beta, genx or genwhy, slacker or preppie, emo or goth, beat or bourgeois; prostitution is a market proposition, where there is a perceived NEED, that NEED will be met. Men go to prostitutes because they think they NEED something they don’t have. What that something is, will be as individual as the man.

There have been plenty of very alpha politicians humiliated because they believed they needed the escape offered by play for pay, and there are very many beta guys who find no need beyond their companion.

Legally, I’m a libertarian, I believe that making police responsible for the behavior of an amoral society is less desirable than making individuals responsible for their own behavior. In practice that means I’ll take the danger of an alpha immoral George Madoff in preference to the protection of a alpha amoral policy wonk or an alpha theocrat whose morals conflict with my own, but that’s just me. :stuck_out_tongue:

180

yah i agree..this whole alpha beta thing got way off hand…i think some people have a need to compartmentalize the world around them so everything makes sense in a black/white fashion. personally i think reality is more grey…and the whole alpha beta thing is more of a mindset based on upbringing than anything else. and i’m gonna say once again…if you don’t agree with someone’s view..give reasons for your own view instead of attacking the other person..doing so just makes you look like an idiot that can’t support your own thoughts. and i’m not talking about you tommy.