Approach Invitations

[Gem]

@Mtnjim

I have to admit, I took a look at DeAngelo’s “DYD” stuff and it looks like it would make some fairly decent “training wheels”. Besides he constantly points out that you don’t mistreat women, a plus in my opinion.

I would also ask anyone to look at some of the material published by Juggler (Wayne Elise) for a more balanced view.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Please watch this and tell me:
1)that the best way to help these guys is to tell them in a patronising way to ‘just be themselves’
2)that these guys wanting women and happiness in their lives is wrong.
3)That they are taught some wierd routines, patterns and false idenities.

The Attraction Chronicles: Watch Seduction School Episode (Video)

[iGN]

PheroQuirk, this is an awesome post. It addresses some fundamental workings of social interactions that are not at all apparent to many guys. It should also help answer the questions of those who try pheromones but claim “nothing happens”.

Regarding the hostility towards PU, it’s understandable. From my point of view, PU is a lot of things, and not all is good. While not all in the community is “highly ethical”, believe it or not some of the largest download sites actually ban material because it’s being considered unethical and potentially harmful.

Most PU, the way it is thought today, isn’t about teaching someone a “trick” to get someone into bed. Some material might be marketed that way (“Bed any girl you want in five minutes or less”), but when you dive into the material, it’s actually about something else.

It’s about turning guys like myself into guys that you women appreciate. It’s about turning us into better men. It’s about making us understand how you think so we can better communicate. The term “chick crack” doesn’t really reflect a low opinion of women, on the contrary;

When I’m out with my friends, we talk about stuff. You’d be surprised how many people sit a whole night talking about computers, World of Frickin’ Warcraft and even work. Sometimes throwing in a “Oh, she’s cute”, but never even considering talking to her. A lot of my friends are extremely analytical beings. They don’t play. “Chick crack” is a blunt way of telling these guys that if you want to be a fun person, you have to play. “Here’s a game for you to play. It might seem silly to you, and it is, but if you do it, you’re starting to become a playful person.” It’s not sinister or reflective of a low opinion of women. It’s a wakeup-call for Good Guys who just don’t get it yet.

There’s a lot of PU-related material I personally feel (and I hope it’s OK that I voice an opinion even though I’m an absolute newbie on this board) does not have a place here, but things that are obviously overlapping with the use of pheromones regarding something as absolutely necessary as the ability to understand and register hits, is something I’d hate to not be able to read about in these forums.

Ail, I know you urge people to just “be themselves”. A lot of people have “been themselves” for a long time, and it’s not working. A lot of the PU-community has come full circle, from teaching you “tricks”, to adapting another identity temporarily to mimic another type of person, to actually telling you to “be yourself”. Just make “yourself” as good a self as you can be.

Personaly, I think there’s something admirable about a person who is willing to put in as much time with social self improvement as another puts in to learn how to drive or how to play a musical instrument. Especially when you consider that this is a part of someones life that it’s extremely embarrasing being unsuccessful at.

I love the diversity of the members on this board, it’s what makes it good, and what makes me check for new postings many times each day. I would hate for something like PU to make it less so, especially when it’s relevant to the pheromone discussion.

[PheroQuirk]

@iGN

the questions of those who try pheromones but claim “nothing happens”.

This point is gold and it addresses the issue of why a mPUA like Gem can wear a simple mix for one day and be CONVINCED there is something going on here whilst most guys might try a more advanced mix for three months and notice nothing. Even though I felt like I had learnt a little after using 'mones for three years and developing my social awareness it was insightful and kind of shocking to hang out with Jasmin in LA and realise how much of the picture I was still missing.

Regarding the hostility towards PU, it’s understandable.

Yes! And we should recognise that people who are hostile have a point! I mean I came across Ross Jeffries stuff in the early 90s and totally ignored it for years because it seemed so negative and misogynistic. Of course at the time that was probably a somewhat accurate perspective, but it mostly reflected Ross’s warped sense of humour.

Most PU, the way it is thought today, isn’t about teaching someone a “trick” to get someone into bed. Some material might be marketed that way (“Bed any girl you want in five minutes or less”), but when you dive into the material, it’s actually about something else.

Does that remind you of any other product, hmmm? Do the techniques within the community work? Yes, but they won’t transform you overnight into some guy who can manipulate women against their will into sleeping with him. And of course, the same is true of pheromones. Both PUA techniques and mones suffer bigtime from an image problem!!!

It’s about turning guys like myself into guys that you women appreciate. It’s about turning us into better men. It’s about making us understand how you think so we can better communicate. The term “chick crack” doesn’t really reflect a low opinion of women, on the contrary;

Yes! I couldn’t agree more with this.

When I’m out with my friends, we talk about stuff. You’d be surprised how many people sit a whole night talking about computers, World of Frickin’ Warcraft and even work. Sometimes throwing in a “Oh, she’s cute”, but never even considering talking to her. A lot of my friends are extremely analytical beings. They don’t play. “Chick crack” is a blunt way of telling these guys that if you want to be a fun person, you have to play. “Here’s a game for you to play. It might seem silly to you, and it is, but if you do it, you’re starting to become a playful person.” It’s not sinister or reflective of a low opinion of women. It’s a wakeup-call for Good Guys who just don’t get it yet.

yes yes yes

There’s a lot of PU-related material I personally feel (and I hope it’s OK that I voice an opinion even though I’m an absolute newbie on this board) does not have a place here, but things that are obviously overlapping with the use of pheromones regarding something as absolutely necessary as the ability to understand and register hits, is something I’d hate to not be able to read about in these forums.

Again… if you’re a man and you have worked on your diet and body language, done weight training, had a new haircut, bought some new threads, enhanced yourself pheromonically and somehow lucked out and made a girl you fancy interested in you and somehow been perceptive enough to recognise the approach invitation — what do you say? It’s just not an issue that girls tend to need to think about. But for most guys, it’s just not that easy (and whoa re you going to turn to for advice, anyway???)

Ail, I know you urge people to just “be themselves”. A lot of people have “been themselves” for a long time, and it’s not working. A lot of the PU-community has come full circle, from teaching you “tricks”, to adapting another identity temporarily to mimic another type of person, to actually telling you to “be yourself”. Just make “yourself” as good a self as you can be.

Yes… Be yourself, but be your best self and share those parts of you always (to paraphrase Style).

Personaly, I think there’s something admirable about a person who is willing to put in as much time with social self improvement as another puts in to learn how to drive or how to play a musical instrument. Especially when you consider that this is a part of someones life that it’s extremely embarrasing being unsuccessful at.

Personally, I agree. But practically ‘Spezzatura’ seems the way forward…

[PheroQuirk]

@Gem

I would also ask anyone to look at some of the material published by Juggler (Wayne Elise) for a more balanced view.

Maybe Zan too… (do a search on youtube - there is a cool hidden camera take on him chatting with some other PUAs in Chicago).

[PheroQuirk]

@Carrie

Anyone who would like to see this forum rapidly become an all-male haven like love-scent, pay close attention to this thread. The secret has just been revealed to you.

I’m quite willing to give anyone, PUA, self-described alpha male, or garden variety wingnut, the benefit of the doubt. But once you show me your true colors, I don’t forget.

Please remember that what you say to one of us, you say to all of us.

It would be a crying shame were that to happen. I don’t think anyone here would wish that. Sometimes the way that boys talk about girls can offend. (Of course the converse is also true). And practically one sometimes needs to quote advice that is in a style that might be a touch offensive to some sensibilities. That doesn’t mean that we are all chauvinist pigs at heart (despite the occasional 'none ODs
Know that we love you guys over here and appreciate the balanced perspective that comes from having a diverse set of viewpoints…

[PheroQuirk]

Respect. That’s all it’s about.

My biggest objection to this thread (and I wholeheartedly appreciate Pheroquirk’s intentions in starting it) is Richelieu’s reply to Ail. Misspelling her name (echoing what was done in honest error by Gem, as if it’s now some kind of in-joke) and yawning, basically attempting to shut her up … what I can even say about such juvenile behavior. Alpha male? I think not.

Hi Carrie.

Thanks for being open to the idea that I started this thread with good things in mind.

I don’t know Richelieu well enough to get a sense for how much of that was deliberate. But I agree that if it was (and that may well be the case), it’s pretty juvenile and therefore mostly worthy of ignoring. Not that I don’t on occasion have my own juvenile moments…

genuinely intended to help shy men enter into relationships with women

yes… though I would say it applies to more than just shy men. in the past 50 years there has been an incredibly radical social change (technology + social values), and society is still kind of adapting to the aftershocks. unless you’ve been there, it’s really pretty hard to conceive just how lost and confused many men have been left. wanting the best doesn’t mean you have any idea how to get there.

I read and participate in the men’s forum because a lot of good PHEROMONE information gets discussed here. I post here on the men’s side sometimes, particularly about products that both men and women use (and more and more, that’s ALL the products) because I value your observations, your intelligence, and the fact that you are MEN. Until recently, I could count on finding intelligent, thoughtful commentary from a group of open, curious and respectful individuals - in stark contrast to love-scent. It remains to be seen whether that difference survives.

I think one of the best things about this board is the breadth of strong female perspectives on pheromone use, and it would be awful were that to go away. Maybe it’s worth bearing in mind though that what might be obvious to every schoolgirl needs to be laboriously spelt out to be understood by many men. (Hence the rather basic and uncouth post on approach invitations. To most girls, this is trivial. To many guys this reworks their reality).

[bkshilo]

You know, a lot of posts on this forum refer to “hits” and what the pheromone wearer THINKS is happening. But a much smaller number actually talk about any follow thru (IMHO). I have initiated a thread that told a story not only about hits, but what action I initiated as a result.

I’d never heard of the phrase “Approach Invitation” until I read this particular thread. I’d never heard of the phrase “Indicator Of Interest” until I started participating in this forum. Or the concept of “hits” or “Deer In the Headlight Look”.

I’ve learned a lot about social dynamics between men and women by reading the posts on this forum. Somethings I totally agree with, others I totally disagree with; the majority are in between.

I find the originating post in this thread to be informative and useful.

I accept and applaud the right of others to disagree. However, I will exercise my right to support what I appreciate.

Rep points to PheroQuirk!

[MarkL]

I’m on the sidelines on this matter because I see several competing and balancing interests here.

One observation is that any tool – like pheromones, or social “skillz” – can be used constructively, in a truly generative manner, or it can be used in a manner that is negative or that has a self-destructive dynamic.

A personal statement: I don’t accept that I have to tolerate intolerance. You might consider that paradoxical, but I invite you to consider that position.

I suggest to you that real diversity is born of the spirit that violently disagrees but yet steps up to “defend your right to say it.” If you accept that, there are various ways of coping with materials that are objectionable to some groups:

• We can force everyone to the lowest common denominator
• We can ignore particular sensitivities with a “tough luck”, anything goes policy
• We can establish sub-forums, or threads that are Z-rated
• We can create various protocols (e.g., putting “PUA” into the title of a thread) as a guide to content
• … something else, or some combination …

The only thing that I’ve found to be objectionable so far is the demagoguery – the deliberate excitement of emotions – in dealing with topics that are already emotionally overloaded. You might believe that rants are a cathartic solution to “getting it off one’s chest” but unless you have the declamatory skill of a Dennis Miller, you may find that ranting [a] does little to improve your position and ** provokes your antagonists to disregard your ideas and concerns.

I don’t think that threats or rudeness or appeals to God (aka MHarris) are the way to grow from this – important – dramatic issue. We need to work this out, one way or another.

[bkshilo]

@MarkL

A personal statement: I don’t accept that I have to tolerate intolerance.

Gotta spread some points around before I can rep Phero.

Points to you, brotha! Excellent statement.

[iGN]

@PheroQuirk

Maybe Zan too… (do a search on youtube - there is a cool hidden camera take on him chatting with some other PUAs in Chicago).

In my opinion, the perfect example of the whole community coming “full circle” is Tyler D, the prime example of a Social Robot (as portrayed in The Game). If you watch him in RSD Foundations, you’ll see he has become a Man, very similar to a natural like Zan, not really teaching routines at all. And it’s obvious that he really, really cares about what he teaches, from a non-commercial point of view, because he really enjoys seeing boys (any age) blossoming and becoming Men.

I appreciate the description that’s we’re at the dawn of pheromone technology. I think the same is true of the PU community, and you’ll find that when the PU community matures, it won’t really be about pickup at all, rather it will become some form of “Applied Social Sciences”. Until it does, I’m sure the community would appreciate a little slack, and the opportunity for trial and error. In the meantime, I’m sure it’ll keep stepping on people’s toes.

The same way pheromones are being mapped out with trial and error leading to insight, the PU community tries to find patterns to social interactions to explain it, not exploit it.

[MarkL]

I have to say that the OP seems to be almost wholly unrelated to pheromones, unless you consider everything to be somewhat (tangentially) related.

I’m still struggling to understand the point about AI and pheros.

[bkshilo]

@MarkL

I’m still struggling to understand the point about AI and pheros.

Well, I’m using pheros to even the odds a little bit to favor me. And, yes, I know that pheros are a small part of the big picture. Knowing what an Approach Indicator is . . . . well, this knowledge gives me a couple more points in the spread.

Combine these two and take some action (Say “Hi!”), and you not only get a “hit”, but maybe you get a phone number. Or at least you walk away with the confidence and satisfaction that you handled yourself and the situation in a good way.

And the lady will feel good as well.

[PheroQuirk]

@MarkL

I have to say that the OP seems to be almost wholly unrelated to pheromones, unless you consider everything to be somewhat (tangentially) related.

I’m still struggling to understand the point about AI and pheros.

Mark - always enjoy reading your posts. You seem to be unusually socially skilled, and I don’t know whether you acquired that as a child or much later.

Over the past three years I have introduced a few people to pheromones (all guys) and I do think that the biggest sticking point to appreciating the benefit and being able to capitalise on the broader set of opportunities tha present themselves results from poor recognition of social dyamics and in particular of openness to approach.

Pedantically speaking, is this related to pheromones? Not at all. But I think for many (most?) guys, this is one thing that is probably more important to get right than whether one wears Instant Openness or CTTM2 in a social mix!

[bkshilo]

Approach Invitations - Good Stuff!

@PheroQuirk

. . . pheromones . . . .the biggest sticking point to appreciating the benefit and being able to capitalise on the broader set of opportunities tha present themselves results from poor recognition of social dyamics and in particular of openness to approach.

Well, yeah, that’s what I was trying say.

PQ, I appreciate the information you’ve posted. Keep up the good work!

[bkshilo]

@iGN

PheroQuirk, this is an awesome post. It addresses some fundamental workings of social interactions that are not at all apparent to many guys. It should also help answer the questions of those who try pheromones but claim “nothing happens”.

. . . . . It’s about turning guys like myself into guys that you women appreciate. It’s about turning us into better men. It’s about making us understand how you think so we can better communicate. The term “chick crack” doesn’t really reflect a low opinion of women, on the contrary;

When I’m out with my friends, we talk about stuff. You’d be surprised how many people sit a whole night talking about computers, World of Frickin’ Warcraft and even work. Sometimes throwing in a “Oh, she’s cute”, but never even considering talking to her. A lot of my friends are extremely analytical beings. They don’t play. “Chick crack” is a blunt way of telling these guys that if you want to be a fun person, you have to play. “Here’s a game for you to play. It might seem silly to you, and it is, but if you do it, you’re starting to become a playful person.” It’s not sinister or reflective of a low opinion of women. It’s a wakeup-call for Good Guys who just don’t get it yet.

. . . . . .Ail, I know you urge people to just “be themselves”. A lot of people have “been themselves” for a long time, and it’s not working. A lot of the PU-community has come full circle, from teaching you “tricks”, to adapting another identity temporarily to mimic another type of person, to actually telling you to “be yourself”. Just make “yourself” as good a self as you can be.

Personaly, I think there’s something admirable about a person who is willing to put in as much time with social self improvement as another puts in to learn how to drive or how to play a musical instrument. Especially when you consider that this is a part of someones life that it’s extremely embarrasing being unsuccessful at.

Well said. I’ve been one of those “analytical guys” for years.

I’m working on shifting my perspective.

[Mak]

@Richelieu

yawn Ali could you shorten that please to like 2 words or so to get your point across?

Richelieu, This is a contentious subject that many women here have strong point of view about. Some agree, some do debate this view, without looking each other down.

Not a day ago you posted the following, so I hope that is what will drive your posts in the future.

@Richelieu

The Game by Neil Strauss is an awesome book and something I would recommend any shy, geeky guy who wants more choice in his life to read to kick start him on his path to self discovery as it did me.

Since reading the Game I have read many more books on personal interaction from bodylanguage books to the Art of Seduction by Robert Greene all in an aim to improve my personal interactions with women and my relationships with people in general.

“Game” or The Pick up arts is about developing yourself and and improving upon what you have, learning from each social interaction so that they can be more fun and more of an experience, moments to share with others ahd make you more interesting, I know Gem certainly has a lot of interesting stories to tell since he has started gaming!

I have only recently started doing this properly and I have already learnt a lot from my interactions, I believe that continuing to go out and game will give me the most important thing in my life; Choice.

[Rbt]

Semantics may also be causing a problem here. The terms “PUA” and “game” are getting too heavily “loaded” in a negative sense. Perhaps if we broke it down into more “social awarness skills,” “perosonal confidence/growth,” type names (and limited discussions to same) it would be more tolerable, and more helpful. I fear some people automatically reject information due to it’s association with a subject they otherwise find distasteful.

[kathyG]

Okay, I have been following this thread. I will probably take a hit from someone for “my” opinion…but here goes. This is the first site I have been to that has a forum specifically for men and frankly I was impressed. If I wonder around the mens forum I will probably find a post that is not to my taste. I have a choice and it is my own responsibility to decide when I find something offensive to not read any further and stay away from certain posters when I know where they are coming from.

Men and women are different period. From reading in the forums I find the men to be respectful when posting in the womens forum. We are free to moan, complain, laugh and share there. This one is theirs. I think from reading this thread and watching the men berated for their thoughts is akin to instituting “political correctness”.

I could go on but I think it would sound more like an argument instead of opinion.

[Sunny]

@kathyG

Okay, I have been following this thread. I will probably take a hit from someone for “my” opinion…but here goes. This is the first site I have been to that has a forum specifically for men and frankly I was impressed. If I wonder around the mens forum I will probably find a post that is not to my taste. I have a choice and it is my own responsibility to decide when I find something offensive to not read any further and stay away from certain posters when I know where they are coming from.

Men and women are different period. From reading in the forums I find the men to be respectful when posting in the womens forum. We are free to moan, complain, laugh and share there. This one is theirs. I think from reading this thread and watching the men berated for their thoughts is akin to instituting “political correctness”.

I could go on but I think it would sound more like an argument instead of opinion.

This statement deserves to be quoted!
Exactly my thoughts.

Let’s be respectful in each other’s forum. The women’s forum is not a place for men to attack their discussion, goals, beliefs or what ever and vice versa.

I enjoy a lot to read in both forums and I think this is one of the great aspects of pheromonetalk!

Sunny

[Richelieu]

ok my post seems to have caused quite a stir which was unintentional, as Gem has said it was in response to another post totally unrelated to this thread, and I admit yes it was juvenile.

I am not here to cause agro, I am here purely to learn from others and will not post those kind of comments again and I apologise again for if I have upset anyone.