Are any animal products of any kind used in the synthesis of pheromones?
To be quite honest, and AFAIK, no… i think its 100% human pheros, synthetically created in lab. More experienced users, and staff, correct me if i have fibbed…
Not that I am aware of in the actual chemical synthesis. Jasmin did tell me a while ago that grist (whale puke) and musk sacks that are collected and not from any animal kills are used in creating the scent. This could have changed since it was quite a while ago she said this. We have changed scent packages numerous times as well.
I dont think she was referring to Ambergis (whale puke) when she said animal musks. At least I hope not. Ambergis is semi illegal to use in perfumery in most countries including America because it comes from the sperm whale and they are endangered. The reason I said semi illegal is if it washes up on shore that can be sold and used but its extremely rare and is extremely expensive unless you buy it on the black market. Its very hard to confirm the source of Ambergis because poachers are still killing whales to get it. High end colognes that use Ambergis as a fixative or to create a musk scent usually cost well up in the $300 to $500 dollar range.
However Ambergis is not the only substance you can use to create a musk smell. Civit from the civit cat also can help create that smell. Castoreum from the sacks of beavers is also used as aphrodisiac or to simulate leather.Hyraceum from the fossilized poop of the Hyrax for a musk scent. Musk from the musk sacs of deers and of course honey from bees.
I am not saying that Androtics uses any of these of course I do not know but Jasmin did post more then once that animal musks are used and when she did I researched it a little to see what the possibilities were. They are not used as a pheromone though. They are used in making scents.
Tisha
Surely pheros are inherently non-vegan, by dint of the ethical position on indirect indoctrination alone?
??? I shouldn’t have read this thread. I think I’m going to throw up. fossilized poop of the Hyrax? Are you serious? Whale sperm? Whale puke?
Thanks for the input. This is all very interesting to me. Keep it coming.
What is “indirect indoctrination?” I’ve been a vegetarian for 10 years and have never heard that phrase applied to it. Does that have something to do with a religious/spiritual view? Although, I’m sure that is important to some people. I’m more interested in finding out if there are any animal products involved in the manufacturing of “human” pheromones?
I don’t consider replacing the good stuff that soap washes off in the shower, unethical. And while you are at it, why not be able to choose the message that you want to send out? People still have free will. It isn’t rufinol. In theory, it should be just like nice clothes. However, some clothes are made of leather, fur, and wool, and some aren’t. I would just like to know which is which.
I know that animal testing goes into the study of pheromones in general. Insects, mice, etc… Which I don’t exactly stand for but, I’m sure that type of testing will continue to happen in the name of science, regardless.
So are animal products used in ff20-22? What about the other scent options?
I know there are a few plant sources:
Androsterone is found in pine pollen. Celery could be Androstenone or Androsterone, but not sure. Truffles have Androstenol.
Androstadienone (A-1, which Andronics stopped selling) is synthesized from progesterone and pregnenolone. Pregnenolone is synthesized from cholesterol. Progesterone-like steroids are found in Dioscorea mexicana (aka wild yams) Cholesterol seems to be made in the liver. I haven’t seen an alternative. So I’m assuming that A1 isn’t vegan.
Almonds, and Asparagus have vitamin E (which boosts natural pheromone production) Plus, good 'ol celery.
This is interesting. Synthetic musk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Well only someone from Androtics can answer that. I’m only paid to give advice so I don’t have the answers. I do know MEO-EST is a horse hormone.
Its been a long time but I remember it as something along the lines of the vegan detestation of the use of any kind of influence, power, coercion or appeal to authority, tradition or thinking which does not necessarily include or exclude any kind of violence or threat to try and establish or maintain any form of individual, societal or speciesist consensus.
Then you get into the sex-reducing/procreation-only stuff and it goes way-off the beam end! 
On Human pheromones in General…
It depends on where you get them. If you buy mones out of China then yes they use animal byproducts to make human pheromones. If I buy from a dealer I try to find out if they buy their stuff overseas or not and if they do I dont generally use it. Although I found that Germany and Scotland produces good stuff. It depends on the dealer really.
On Pheromones from Androtics
I can only tell you what has been conveyed to me and in the forum over the years by MH and Jasmin. I dont work here.
I know Jasmin has said many many times they only buy from labs in the USA and I know she would never in a million years buy any product pheromone or otherwise from China. She is very passionate about quality pheromones sometimes to the point of annoying me LOL (in a good way of course)
People forget that the consumer products and the advanced products are two different things. The Putatives and experimones are in testing. We dont know what they are or if every one is human. I am confident they are bought here in the USA and are of high quality though.
As Steve mentioned Meo Est which is sold here is a equilin estrogen produced from horse hormone. Its only found in humans when they have inflamed tissue due to illness. The liver cant break it down to secrete it though. Its used to make estrogen replacement drugs but is controversial because it has been shown to cause cancer when ingested or injected.
Its my opinion (not information from androtics) that meo est is sold under its real name because they want people to be aware and make a informed decision whether they want to try it. All the rest of the putatives that have not been highly/widely researched and used are coded except that one.
Although slightly off topic, I do believe that Ambergris is illegal in the US whether it is found on shore or taken from a killed whale. United States Code: Title 16,1372. Prohibitions | LII / Legal Information Institute
16 USC 1372(a)(4)
It is illegal…
(4) for any person to transport, purchase, sell, export, or offer to purchase, sell, or export any marine mammal or marine mammal product— (A) that is taken in violation of this chapter; or
**(B) **for any purpose other than public display, scientific research, or enhancing the survival of a species or stock as provided for under subsection 1374(c) of this title;
It is also worthwhile to point out that:
(c) Importation of illegally taken mammals It is unlawful to import into the United States any of the following:
(1) Any marine mammal which was— (A) taken in violation of this subchapter; or
(B) taken in another country in violation of the law of that country.
(2) Any marine mammal product if— (A) the importation into the United States of the marine mammal from which such product is made is unlawful under paragraph (1) of this subsection; or
(B) the sale in commerce of such product in the country of origin of the product is illegal;
Don’t take this as legal advice, but it is in my humble opinion that the possession of Ambergris within the United States is illegal.
Ahh Good find…
Androtics Pheromone Research
That puts AD in the clear because they are a research company.
It also mentions “That is in violation of this chapter” I believe that chapter expresses the harm or disturbance of the marine life. Finding puke on shore or floating would not apply to that. However proving you found it floating or in shore may be hard to do if they did come after you.
How often do whales puke anyways LOL
Tisha
Are we sure that they do use this currently?
No we are not sure. We are just talking about it because Steve mentioned that Jasmin has mentioned it before. I remember her mentioning it in the forum as well at some point.
If its used its not in any of the products that are scented in neroli. Its only used in high end cologne scents. So anything akuto or some of the FF’s could possibly have it. The best person to ask is Jasmin.
OK I found it
Post # 17
Post # 1
The scent package of A314 has changed a few times since then I believe.
Tisha
After looking into things deeper, in the definitions section I found this:
(7) The term “marine mammal product” means any item of merchandise which consists, or is composed in whole or in part, of any marine mammal.
so I think I might have to reverse my previous position. I think that “found” ambergris is in the clear because it is not a marine mammal product by the definition of marine mammal product. (ambergris from a “taken” whale would obviously be illegal) If I had access to legal research engines I could do some research on what is considered “composed in whole or part” of a marine animal in order to come to a definite answer. I’ll be honest and say that I could really go either way on this one… but my opinion matters less than the opinion of a Court’s.
My understanding is that ambergris MUST spend a long time floating in seawater and exposed to sunlight for the necessary chemical reactions to occur which generate the characteristic ambergris aroma notes. The pre-ambergris material is a waxy substance that the whale produces to protect its digestive tract from the abrasions caused by hard parts of giant squid, such as the cartilaginous beak, that form the main part of the sperm whale diet. Pre-ambergris is actually defecated in the sea and floats around for a year or two before it lands on a beach. Sometimes it has been reported to be vomited if the mass of ambergris causes an intestinal blockage. Apparently the pre-ambergris that is expelled from the whale has a repulsive fecal stench and has no commercial value. This there is no economic motive for killing whales to obtain the unfinished material. Stories of whale slaughter to obtain ambergris are outright fabrications. The pre-ambergris slowly loses its original fecal aroma after an extended washing in seawater. Further processing is needed to remove the excess waxy materials and organic matter and produce a yellowish ambergris oil which is used in perfumery.
Even if that is true, that still does not solve the question as to whether or not ambergris (or any fecal or vomit matter from a marine mammal) is considered a marine mammal product for purposes of this act. It is clear that the whales cannot be taken themselves. Because of this, any “marine mammal products” of that whale are also illegal as per
"
(2) Any marine mammal product if— (A) the importation into the United States of the marine mammal from which such product is made is unlawful under paragraph (1) of this subsection"
Although from a different statute, the similar situation would be a found bald eagle feather. Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:
You cannot possess a bald eagle feather at all. Nada. Zip. Not one single feather. (Unless you are Native American and meet other requirements). It doesn’t matter that you found the feather on the ground. The possession itself is the crime.
Now, with regards to whether or not ambergris itself is considered a marine mammal product, I went through the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) and found this:
Whale products means any unprocessed part of a whale and blubber, meat, bones, whale oil, sperm oil, spermaceti, meal, and baleen.
Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:
The CFR has other areas that overlap with this (who said this stuff was easy?!) and this is not the best fit in a game of legal connect-the-dots. The closest I have come is where it states that “soft parts” do not include urine and fecal matter.
I actually am interested in this quite a bit, so I will do some more research when I have time.
Its true they are not killing them solely for the ambergris but they do collect it and put it through a process so they can sell it after they kill them. Humans have learned how to mimic the natural process in making ambergris they just need the waxy substance.
Blue whales are on the endangered species list so are humpbacks and other species are very close to being added to the list. These vessels do not care nor do they discover what type of whale they are killing before hand. They see a whale they kill it.
I am not a vegan and yes people can argue that the Japanese use every part of the whale but the fact is they dont need to. There are plenty of abundant marine life they can replace whale with. When tuna spawn they lay hundreds of eggs repopulating the species. Whales are like humans. They have one calf at a time and are far more in danger then other species.
Just because they were going to kill the whale anyways for other purposes doesn’t make it OK to sell use or obtain ambergris. Some people have that attitude because it makes them feel like they have no responsibility for the death but its still wrong and if you support it by buying ambergris you are responsible as well.
Its like stealing the watch off a dead man. He may not need it anymore but its still not right.
JMO
Tisha
Not to mention that it would be a far fetched idea to have a Vulcan and Kirk to return to the Earth and save us again. They already did it once so believing they’d do it again after we stupidly killed them off again would just be ignorant. Dumb humans!
That post from Jasmin refers to an older (2006) special edition of A314, we do not use any other product derived from animal except for the no-kill collected deer musk. It mentions one other animal derived product, however we no longer use it (haven’t for some time). Right now the only product used is the deer musk in A314, which is still collected no-kill. Ambergris is not currently in any of our product and to my knowledge hasn’t for some time, although I can go back and look it up. But I know nothing in our facilities contain it, nor do we even have it as a raw material.
I’m glad to see people are doing their research and are concerned with animal safety. So rest easy knowing that the deer are still frolicking happily and are probably oblivious to the musk being collected behind them in their path.