Experts: Help me save my marriage

Yes, and I realise you have said as much on the forum. But that’s not in my personal experience. I don’t know anyone on the forum in person; so I can’t say “I know what that looks like”. The subject I was pointing out was I’m familiar with this kind of behavioural pattern and what has happened in my sphere of experience with those signs. I did write a disclaimer in the beginning. I have learned to cover both my butt and the bases.

I’ve been quite clear that I’m single, not even “seeing” anyone, because I don’t know what a good relationship looks or feels like. I don’t trust my choices - since I’ve made “bad” or karmic ones in the past. I’ve ended up with a couple of guys temperamentally (exposed after the “honeymoon” period) similar to the parental issues. No bueno. I leave those sorts of relationships alone, because of what I know, have seen, experienced.
I don’t trust beyond what’s been shown to be trustworthy. I don’t look for duplicitous behaviour, nor do I ‘read into’ situations. But, if I’m not acceptable the way I am - a courtesy I extend to everyone - go be with someone else. I’m not the person for them.

When did I ever say I was interested in getting married? I have never expressed any interest in marriage. Ever.

I think, Astrea, that Tisha and I are not trying to prove you wrong, hon. We merely want to point out to our guy tryin’ to hold it all together that it IS possible to do. Yes, these days it’s all too rare. I’ll more than grant you that. But possible? Yes.

And don’t forget that next month you’ll be able to say you ARE friends IRL with someone on the board. :wink:

I do think you gave excellent advice, however. All I can add is communicate, communicate, communicate. And that doesn’t mean just talk - it means LISTEN. Actually hear and process what the other person is saying, instead of just mentally prepping your next statement. At the risk of seeming superficial, look at Jay Leno interviewing a guest on the Tonight Show, then go back and look at video of Johnny Carson interviewing a guest. You can tell that Leno is prepping a one-liner half the time, to riff off something the guest said, and he tunes out. Whereas Carson always listened carefully and often asked insightful questions as a result. And when he did quip, it was hilariously funnier (IMHO) than Leno. Because it was more RELEVANT. Carson took the time to develop a kind of relationship with his guest, even if he’d never met them before that day.

That’s what a conversation with your spouse should be like. Oh, I don’t mean the big glitz junk or the quizzing. But the give and take. Listening, then responding, not talking past each other like I see so many people do. Maybe somewhere along the line, you started talking past each other, and stopped hearing each other’s pleas, requests, and cries for help. Maybe it’s time to start giving attention back again.

I know that. Did anyone read the colorful disclaimer in the front? Really. I made it all sorts of brightness so all of you wouldn’t be able to miss it! I even state there is NO REASON FOR THEM NOT TO BE THE EXCEPTION. Just everyone was talking about what he can do - and not what she may have already done - mentally, emotionally, and physically.
The suggestion by Tisha that I would be simple enough to get involved in an LTR in my present outlook . . . Really? I chose not to take that personally.

My next question to Austinn is: how old was she when she got the implants? How long, as exact as you can remember, has the new look been in the making?
Not going to expound any further unless my theory bears fruit.

That’s why I said “Know of” instead of know.

I saw the disclaimer on your post and I am not disagreeing with your advice at all. You did say its you personal experience and that was what I was commenting on.

I know… and you wont know what one looks like until you look around you for people in those relationships.

You mentioned “I have never seen a good first marriage” My point is that its not that you never seen one you never noticed the good ones because your past experience has only allowed you to see and notice the failed ones. You even dismiss Boudicca’s and my relationships because you dont know us. Let me tell you something. I have been on this forum a long time and some “online” friendships can be just as real as offline ones.

To you this may just be a bunch of people sitting in a room yapping. Some of us in here have known each other for years. We share our thoughts and personal experiences. We have shared the loss of loved ones, the birth of children, our joys and our sorrows and some very deep emotions together. I know some people in here better then people I see visually everyday. That’s the nature of this forum. Whether you like it or not sweety I care about your well being.

So…The point of my post was not to judge you or say your advice was wrong but to point out that our perspectives from personal experience sometimes limit us. I like you and dont want you to limit yourself.

I know you never said you wanted to get married. I dont think I suggested that you should anywhere. What I am saying is your beliefs derived from your past experiences and witnessing your parents marriage are limiting your possibilities now and you deserve better then that. NO one says you have to get married. The offer may come someday though Astera. I just want you to see it with clarity not with the eyes of the past.

Take it personal because it is. Its personal in a sense that I care about you and I want you to experience trust love and happiness because you deserve that. From reading your posts you seem like a very fun intelligent wonderful girl. I never implied you were simple though. Actually your quite complicated LOL. :roll_eyes:

…

Now back on track,

Has anyone noticed he hasn’t been back. He wants to hear what he wants to hear and nothing else. That’s why his wife wants to leave. Until he steps back and takes a look at his own behavior, where his own perspective is coming from then he is doomed to keep repeating his mistake.

Tisha

That’s why I said “Know of” instead of know. And to me, I can know of the existence of a “good first marriage” but I like to see for myself. I don’t have any way of “seeing” this on the forum. All I have is what people say. I take that at face value - but it’s not something that I can say that I’ve SEEN. Get me?

I saw the disclaimer on your post and I am not disagreeing with your advice at all. You did say its you personal experience and that was what I was commenting on. The intended value to this thread this is what I’ve seen. Commonly. I don’t understand why the comment.

I know… and you wont know what one looks like until you look around you for people in those relationships. Did I not say I have not seen any first marriages that lasted? There IS NO ONE THAT I KNOW, PERSONALLY, as in: in front of me, seeing them interact together, person. No-one. Not one couple. As a matter of fact, another 2 of the couples I know are in the process of dissolution.

You mentioned “I have never seen a good first marriage” My point is that its not that you never seen one you never noticed the good ones because your past experience has only allowed you to see and notice the failed ones. You even dismiss Boudicca’s and my relationships because you dont know us. Let me tell you something. I have been on this forum a long time and some “online” friendships can be just as real as offline ones. Please, in the name of mutual misunderstanding - don’t go here. I’ve been here for 10 whole minutes. I’m only just getting to know people. And for the record, let me tell you something: I KNOW. You’ve been here a long time. I haven’t. You know everybody. I know a couple of peeps on here, a little. You’re assumption of my ‘dismissing’ anyone or anything is erroneous. I know maybe 2 things about you for sure. You know what I’ve posted. I have online friendships - deep, lasting ones for over 5 years. I like to take my time with calling people “friend”.

To you this may just be a bunch of people sitting in a room yapping. Now, that’s just rude,
Some of us in here have known each other for years. My entire point. We share our thoughts and personal experiences. We have shared the loss of loved ones, the birth of children, our joys and our sorrows and some very deep emotions together. Again, I KNOW. Again I GET IT. I know some people in here better then people I see visually everyday. That’s the nature of this forum. Whether you like it or not sweety I care about your well being. If so, try PMing me. This is not the place for discussion on my views. I only offered a view.

So…The point of my post was not to judge you or say your advice was wrong but to point out that our perspectives from personal experience sometimes limit us. I like you and dont want you to limit yourself. I KNOW THIS. How many times do I have to say it. I AM AWARE OF EXACTLY HOW BROKEN I AM. Again, not for this thread.

I know you never said you wanted to get married. I dont think I suggested that you should anywhere. If not you, someone else did. I which case accept my most profound apologies. What I am saying is your beliefs derived from your past experiences and witnessing your parents marriage are limiting your possibilities now and you deserve better then that. I KNOW!!! NO one says you have to get married. The offer may come someday though Astera. And it’ll get refused. Just like it did the last 3 times. Especially here in this country. Not going to take on a contract that can easily be avoided by lack of necessity. I just want you to see it with clarity not with the eyes of the past. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Take it personal because it is. Its personal in a sense that I care about you and I want you to experience trust love and happiness. Your care, tho’ noted, is misplaced. I am fully aware of what’s going on. I chose and still choose not to take that personally. Otherwise I going to waste a whole TOGO! of IO over stressing. From reading your posts you seem like a very fun intelligent wonderful girl. I never implied you were simple though. Actually your quite complicated LOL. :roll_eyes:

…

Now back on track,

Has anyone noticed he hasn’t been back. He wants to hear what he wants to hear and nothing else. That’s why his wife wants to leave. Until he steps back and takes a look at his own behavior, where his own perspective is coming from then he is doomed to keep repeating his mistake.

Tisha

Or the bickering scared him off. -_-

This was so not my intent for getting people to post in this thread.

I beg pardon, Trey-trey. You’d think a pro writer would do a better job in her posts, but it was late and I was tired. I was directing this part, not at you, but at Austinn:

And since I really don’t have anything more to offer, I’m gonna sit back and lurk now.

In all honesty, his opening post immediately states that he doesn’t want to hear any “let it go” or “move on” advice. Now while I do feel that the relationship is salvageable (at least based off of the one side of the story we’re privy to) I also feel that once you express that you only want to hear what you want to hear, you’re already limiting yourself.

She’s in a position where because she’s “increased her attractiveness” through surgery and weight loss, fitness etc. That she has what MHarris would call the Rone Man at home, but is getting IOI’s from young virile None men.
In a way the OP is an Instant Gentleman and Instant Honesty type of guy, and she’s realizing that she can get attention and attraction from Instant Jerk+Instant Openness type of guys.
Now within the relationship, there is shared history and memories, children, finances and assets, the knowledge of the OP’s willingness and abilities as a provider/protector type…which due to her own financial income potential and the ages of the children she may feel are no longer needed.

The younger guy that we know about (as she probably gets approaches and at least looks of interest more often than the OP has considered) offered energy, fresh sexual enthusiasm, ambition and hunger, fun, excitement etc.

Now, the advantage that the OP has is that is ten times easier for him to add the qualities of a youthful competitor to his stockpile of attractive traits, than it is for a younger rival to try and build x number of years worth of memories and emotional/financial investment in a relationship.

He can through actions moreso than words, remind her of what he has to offer as the man he has become, but also add a touch of the man she fell in love with years ago, by adding a touch of None man to his Rone man base…Which is imo what MHarris had in mind when he designed A314 (not that I’m suggesting use of that product as it seems she reacts negatively to it) but the concept of how he should consider working on himself to refresh the attraction is valid.
I swear MHarris should get a Nobel Prize for some of his concepts and idea’s.

Well Austinn, I think you’ve been given a ton of great advice. Really very little I disagree with, which is unusual for me. :smiley: Nevertheless, I’ll add my own take.

First of all, I’d say limit your focus. If your focus is first on getting your wife to have sex with you or rekindle loving feelings toward you, you will fail. Focus on being worthy of your wife’s trust and respect. When she respects you and trusts you, then she will want to have sex with you again. But she will never respect you if you are weak, needy, or otherwise trying to placate her or “get sex from” her.

This not only doesn’t surprise me, it is what I would expect. You are not communicating the love of a strong protector and provider who wants to take care of his woman, you are communicating the neediness of a boy who wants attention from his mother.

You definitely need to regain your own self-confidence, ambition, and feeling of being sexually attractive and seductive, i.e. your sexual power. I agree that you should start acting a bit more like a bachelor, though I wouldn’t go so far as to actually start dating any women. Still, imagine what you’d do to rebuild your life if your wife and kids left you and start doing some of that. You need to get yourself to a place where you don’t fear losing your wife.

I suggest watching “American Beauty.” I also hesitantly suggest reading “The Way of the Superior Man.” Hesitantly, because I think it includes some dangerously warped ideas of what to expect and tolerate in women, but suggest because it is a remarkably accurate description of the archetypal female’s ideal male, with actionable advice to men on how to become more like that.

I’m a big fan of reinvention. I feel I was messed up big time in my upbringing and have reinvented myself at least 4 times. I’ve been somewhat absent from the forum here for the last year or so as I’ve been digging into the latest round of reinvention. Usually the reinvention is with the idea of becoming more like my best self, more who I was meant to be. On the other hand, the previous time, starting in 2001, it was to become sort of a caricature of who I imagined I wanted to be, so I could fully explore that desire and blow away any resentment that I wasn’t living that life. Also, by adopting a sort of alternate persona, I got to see what about it felt phoney and what “truth” of my “core” pulled me back to what I used to call “me” and feel the difference between that and the other things I thought were me but in fact didn’t pull me back at all.

This is why I suggest you watch “American Beauty”. It’s largely about Lester reinventing himself and becoming much happier with himself at the end of the movie than he was at the beginning. I don’t suggest you quit your job and take up smoking pot, but I do suggest getting back in touch with your balls. I offer my own tale of reinventions to inspire yours.

Personally, I found getting in shape to be supremely helpful. I’ve been sporadically going back and forth from not working out at all to exercising 3 days a week since I was 30, but this past year I bumped it up to 4 days a week and then 5 and found it’s made a huge difference. I started going to a gym that has an olympic weightlifting class (at the suggestion of a trainer at another gym) and found it was the kind of exercise and sport that is a great match for my body (which is why the trainer suggested it). Not only do I look better and have the strength to roughhouse with my two 80 pound nieces (who I could barely lift before), but I have better posture and generally a more confident and ambitious attitude toward life. I highly recommend you try some different kinds of exercise and see what works best for you.

As for pheromones, I haven’t tried A1, but I find A314 worn on my neck (where I can smell it) helps me feel calmer, more confident, and more “manly” than I do without it, and I highly recommend it. The fact that your wife bitches about it is actually a good thing. It means that it makes her feel like you are more powerful, and she wants to resist that. You are demonstrating balls and she is trying to cut them off. This is a fight that she secretly wants to lose, but it’s likely even secret from her own consciousness, so don’t talk about it. Of course, it would be stupid to disagree with Tisha, though, so go ahead and buffer the A314 with IG and IS.

I do suggest that you stick with this one formula for several weeks while you rebuild trust and respect. If your wife complains about the A314 smelling too strong, don’t try to convince her she’s wrong, just say something like “I really like it. It reminds me of college.” (Feel free to substitute some other fond memory for college. Something from your courtship that your wife still finds romantic would be best.) The point is you are wearing it because you like how it smells, and the smell is associated with something you both think fondly of. You need to calmly assert your right to wear it because it is something you like without allowing her to interpret it as something you are wearing to irritate her. If it’s too strong, then let her move away from you.

One side note, all these potions do smell too strong for the first 15 minutes, so give her that. Don’t put them on and then immediately get into bed to watch TV. Put them on at least 15 minutes before you’ll be in the same room together. I’d wear A314 all the time, one drop after my morning shower, one drop when leaving work. Don’t load up on anything once you’re home from work. (This is if you’re living the “shower in the morning, work 9-5, home for the evening” kind of lifestyle. If you have another schedule, let us know.)

The important thing with building trust and respect is consistency. You can’t be all over the place with your pheromones, you need to wear the same thing all the time to build up the trust and a solid sense of the new you. Be patient.

After a few weeks or maybe even months, I’d suggest trying IH. Be warned, however, that the stuff really works. I’ve had people really unload their pent up anger and found myself venting my own unintentionally while wearing it. You might want to find a spot in the house (not in the bedroom) where you and your wife visit but don’t spend a lot of time and try spraying IH there instead of wearing it on your body.

One of the most helpful mantras I’ve ever tried is “this too shall pass.” It’s in our nature to find a good thing and want to hold on to it. You just cannot hold on to a person, relationship, or situation. It’s always fluid, changing. Instead, you need to learn to ride the wave, work with the flow. You’re not going to get back your old relationship with your wife and you don’t want to keep your current one. Focus on charting a course for a new relationship with your wife, one you both will love and enjoy.

It sounds like your sex life has never been very good, and that your wife married you at 23, so probably she’s never had great sex in her life. I recommend you find some adult sex ed materials and start learning. I do not suggest you ask your wife to join you, neither do I suggest you exclude her. I recommend you get a book like Intimate Wisdom which has a lot of practices you can do on your own that help you develop and direct your sexual energy and start working on that. If she asks about it, tell her and if she doesn’t, don’t. If she’s curious or interested, allow her to read the book and if she talks to you in a respectful way about it, engage in that conversation. If she disapproves of it, say it is something you are doing for yourself and you don’t need her approval.

You have to walk a fine line between being independent and totally withdrawing from her. I suggest adopting the frame of mind that you welcome her in your life, but you don’t need her. If she wants to leave, you’d be disappointed, but you acknowledge that it’s her life and her decision. If she wants things to be different, you’re open to change, eager for change as you’d like things to be different, too, but it’s a two way street and she needs to put in the same level of effort as you are. (For the most part, though, if it feels like you’re doing 70% and she’s doing 30%, that’s still close enough to even because it always feels like you’re doing more than the other person.)

That said, married since 23, she probably feels this is her last chance to be an independent sexy woman. If you prevent her from having that experience, she’ll resent you forever. If you allow her to have that experience, she’s bound to find it immensely exhilarating compared to being a mother of 2 in a sexless marriage. Ideally you’d find a way to let her have her freedom while staying attached to you.

If she wants a break do not be the one to move out! If she wants to leave, send the kids to summer camp and let her go on her way. You stay put. This is the “if you love someone set them free” part of your relationship. But it’s “set them free” not “let them drive you away.” Stand your ground and be ready to accept her back regardless of what she does while she’s away.

Most of all be patient and be consistent. Find your own strength and set your own course without depending on her. Be the cause of your own life.

My notes are added in blue.

Excellent advice from ScienceStudent. I can say as an older woman with some experience in such things that she is dead-on in every point.

There is only one point in which I’d disagree with her, but my disagreement is only valid within the confines of a happy, healthy relationship, which doesn’t apply here. (I like to know my man doesn’t want to get along aka “live” without me. But like I said, that’s not something that should be said in this case. It WILL come across as begging and pleading.)

This is exactly where my repeated advice about a guy being himself comes in. (I KNOW, I KNOW - I’m talking about his BEST self. The best self he can be. This is as opposed to acting a role, which is going to break down in the long term eventually anyway.) Because it’s scientifically demonstrated that men and women do NOT think alike.

Let me repeat that: MEN AND WOMEN DO NOT THINK ALIKE.

That’s right; it isn’t a case of simply “not understanding.” The thought processes are very different. This can be statisically demonstrated in the results of Meyers-Briggs personality testing. Women will tend to mostly fall into one group or groups; men into a completely different group or groups. Therefore it’s very hard for a man to play mind games; it isn’t what they do, isn’t the way they think. It CAN be the way most women think (my psych tests show I’m not “most women,” so I don’t play those kindsa games either, but hey). This is why ScienceStudent is saying things like, “Do NOT do/say this!” and “Don’t think you know what she’s thinking.”

Men and women do not think alike. Do not presume to believe you know what she’s thinking. I cannot stress this enough. This is why I always tell couples that the best, most important component of a marriage is good communication.

Even the best literary detective that ever lived (on a written page!) admitted he could deduce nothing from women because he didn’t understand how they thought! :wink: (Thought I’d end on a light note.)

So Very True… The Thoughts of a Woman would Stump even the Likes of the Great Sherlock Holmes Himself… :wink: