Guys, I need some dating advice (somewhat phero related)

Field Reports & Anecdotal Experience Men's Pheromone Advice & Field Reports
1

Man… part of me feels embarrassed for posting this, but hell… most of you folks are good people and maybe whatever advice is given to me can help someone else who’s in a similar predicament.

So, those of you who knew me back in the stripclubbing hayday when I was posting regularly probably know that I recently got a divorce. I don’t make any big secret about it. Well, anyway, I mentioned once or twice that there was this girl at work that I was really attracted to. I never pursued asking her out or anything, because even though my ex and I were separated, we were still married, and I still felt a moral obligation to not do anything remotely resembling cheating.

Well, that was about 6 months ago. I’ve now been divorced for almost 3 months, and I figure I’ve had enough time to decompress from that ordeal. That co-worker is now on first shift, and I’m on second. I have a 50 mile commute and usually plan for a 30 minute margin of error for traffic problems along the way. Thankfully, it’s usually clear most of the time, so I generally spend the half hour hanging out and shooting the breeze with said co-worker, who I will call Sarah. So yesterday, after she left, I made the decision that I was going to nut up and ask her out for Saturday night when I saw her today.

Now I should interject that marriage has caused me to revert back to a complete rank amateur when it comes to the dating scene, so I was scared to death. Not only was I afraid of rejection in general, but having someone I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life with tear my heart to pieces added on to the apprehension. I’m sure those of you who’ve been through divorce know what I’m talking about here. It’s the extreme fear you face when you have to decide whether or not to get back on that proverbial horse.

So anyway, today rolls around, and I head to work. When I got there, I saw that half of first shift was GONE, including Sarah, and those who were there were pushing brooms and carrying cleaning supplies. This basically meant there is no production work to be done, and everyone would be assigned clean-up duty (what we call “5S”). I ask the first shift manager where his crew went, and he said they’d headed to one of the local Indian casinos. I KNEW Sarah had to be with them. It was a one of those “I know that I know that I know” gut feelings. So, I asked if it were possible to take a vacation day since there wasn’t any work, and my manager said yes. Zing! Down to the casino I went.

I got there, and sure enough, everyone was in one of the bars, well on their way to being sauced, including Sarah. She saw me and was all “Hey, it’s my buddy! What are you doing here? Came to see me, huh?” Damned alcohol… truth serum that it is, she basically called me out. Heh.

Oh, by the way, even though this isn’t a phero report per se, this is a pheromone forum and to make it relevant, I was wearing a 5:1 mix of Issey Miyake Intense (love the stuff!) with NPA, plus 1 part MX269, which is supposed to be an amplifier. This mix was put together in an empty to-go bottle about 5 days ago and has sat in a drawer ever since. Because I originally was going to work, I only gave myself one healthy spray to the back of my neck of this mix. I also applied Scent of Eros to the backs of my ears, and 4 inches on each of my wrists (for those who don’t know, it’s a roll-top bottle with a tip that’s about a half inch wide). Finally, I applied a “top coat” of two light sprays of Issey to either side of my neck/shoulders and one light spray on one wrist, rubbing with the other to mix with the Scent of Eros.

Back to the story. A group of us, including myself, Sarah, a couple who we work with, my shift team leader (heh!), and another guy went over to a roulette table. and started playing. Sarah motioned for me to take the seat next to her, and asked me for a cigarette. I happily obliged because she’s aways busting my balls about smoking, when come to find out, when she drinks, she smokes too. I got all suave, pulled a cigarette out for her, then lit it for her, and we commenced to playing. One by one, the others left the table until it was just she and I. We made small talk while playing. I asked her if she drove herself, and she said “no”, and that she car-pooled with the other guy that was with us. Uh-oh. I casually asked her if they were seeing eachother, and she got all defensive, saying “I don’t know why people keep thinking that!” Now guys, that’s a “No”, right? Yeah, I thought so too.

Crap, this is getting to be like one of my old strip club reports-- i.e. LONG. Gonna post this just to toss it up there, and I’ll get to the point of this in just a little bit.

-D4

2

Heh.. good cliff hanger so far.
Ponderu

3

Heh. You should have read my long strip club thread. Every damned post was a cliffhanger. :wink: Ask Tater. Heh.

Grabbing a bite to eat, then I’ll continue. I just like explaining in detail. y’see. nod

-D4

4

Damn straight.

Don’t be!

LONG reports or GOOD. I hope your doing ok after the divorce :frowning:.
It’s a Doggy Dog World at The “Infamous” Angel Eyes, Devil Smile

In otherwords, don’t be average and predictable, but don’t be over the top dressing like you’re colorblind. Be “crazy” and spontaneous, but don’t shoot up a school. And have a confident air about you, but don’t be ass-like. And show that you care, but don’t show it so much that she feels like she can walk over you.

I’ll let the others take it from here, they’re fancy!

5

Okay, back to the story. So after a little while, she gets up to go to the restroom, and then comes back reeking of perfume. She explained that while she was in there, some lady was freshening up, and that it was the same perfume she wore. She told the lady, who took that as an invitation to douse her. Doh!

We went back into the bar to join the group, and Sarah started complaining that the smell was way too strong, and mixed with the several beers she had, it was making her ill. I told her to go outside and walk around, since the weather was nice and it was pretty breezy. She said she was afraid she wouldn’t make it back in, so I offered to walk out there with her. This is when I noticed the first red flag. She agreed to go and took my arm, announcing “Jon’s gonna take me for a walk. If we’re not back in 10 minutes, call security.” When she did, that other guy kinda shot me a nasty look.

Hmm… Fuck it. We went out anyway. Small talk continued, generally about perfume since that seemed to be the… er… overbearing topic at the moment. I mentioned that I was trying something new, and she was all “Yeah, I noticed that the other day. What is it? It smells good.” “Issey Miyake,” I told her. Then, she randomly shifted to how when she takes a shower, she likes to rub baby oil all over her body before toweling off. I so didn’t need to hear that! Mental pictures were clicking off like crazy.

Ahem…

So we head back in, and sat at the bar with the others. I took a seat beside Sarah, but not RIGHT beside her. There was a gap at least big enough for another stool between us. That’s when the other guy decided to AMOG me by standing between Sarah and I with his back to me. Now, I found myself in a precarious position, as these are people that either work with me or at the same place on a different shift with me. Had this been a regular bar scene, I would have done something to counter the AMOG routine. Instead, I just casually stood up and found a gap in the “conversational circle” that had formed and joined in on the casual bullshitting that was going on back and forth.

We all decided to head over to one of the restaurants inside the casino, and when we were sitting down, I purposely avoided sitting beside Sarah. This was to avoid seeming needy, and I wanted to calibrate the situation a little better with this other guy. Sure enough, he sat right beside her and rested his arm on the back of her chair. At this point, I let my pursuit end, and planned to just observe their interactions while basically hanging out and having a good time. About half-way through the meal, Sarah was acting kinda goofy from being drunk, and the other guy told her “Come on, we need to talk.” They left the table, and that’s when my team leader said to everyone “You guys know they’re seeing eachother, right?” Seems no one else knew it either.

So here is my dilemma. Does Sarah not see their relationship as anything more than friends, or was she trying to keep it low key when I asked, for fear of a work-wide scandal? I don’t know how to answer this myself, as I was getting signals of some sort from her. I know that alcohol affects behavior, but as I mentioned earlier, it’s more of a truth serum than anything else. I wonder if they really are dating, but she’s not to happy with the arrangement, or if he’s the one misinterpreting things.

Unfortunately, I didn’t get a chance to talk with her again tonight, because he came back alone and said she wanted to pass out in the car. We finished eating about 20 minutes later, and pretty much dispersed after that.

Now, Eldros, I wanted to acknowledge your reply. Those are some good tips for an actual date and I’ll keep them in mind. I haven’t even gotten to that point, and as you can see, I have a bit of a hurdle to overcome.

-D4

6

Ok, looking in from the outside and since I was not there I am not the best judge but…

I get the feeling from what you said that he has staked a claim but I really do not think she has accepted it.

I think she was probably honest with you about not being with him because your friends already. If she was going out with him she would have told you and ask you not to tell anyone.

Your supervisor believes they are going out..to me that says someone has been telling him stories to support his claim and mark his territory.

The other male in your story got concerned only when she became closer and more comfortable with you, until then he was not even paying attention from what I saw. He thought his claim was uncontested.

She was not paying attention to him either which to me means she is not attached to him, and she came to you and wanted to spend her time with you while there. Could be just friendly but I do not read it that way.

When she went outside with you for a walk if she was attached to him she would have been concerned about what he thought of that. She did not appear to be at all and confessing to you her shower procedure says to me she felt close to you and comfortable even if the alcohol was talking.

My opinion, she is not attached to him. You need to get busy and let her know how you feel before they become a thing just because you didn’t make a move. That would not be fair to her or you. So… GET HOT and go let her know how you feel.
Ponderu

7

Ok like pond said I am looking at from the outside so keep that in mind.

She has probably dated him.

So she is doing one of two things…

Trying to make him Jealous so that he becomes more serious instead of sneeking around.

Or

She considers it just a date and is not exclusive with him which is why she said to you “Why does everybody keep saying that”

Another big possiblity is that they are just good friends. Prehaps you remember my mentioning that my Best friend is a Male. People always think we are a item until they know us better. Sometimes we correct them and sometimes we dont.

Best bet is when you have a chance ask her straight out if she is seeing him. Mention people got a little perplexed when you where with her. My guess is she is gonna say we dated but are just good friends. My thought is that instead of talking to her he would have been talking to you if he was her boyfriend.

Tisha

8

Hey Data, I’m glad to see that you are moving on and ready to get back in the game.

I keyed in on a number of things you said, and bolded each that I thought to be the most relevant. However, not knowing your day-to-day interactions with her and other co-workers, my observations are just that, and could be way off base. Here are the things I queued in on though:

If she did not see at least a potential opening for something happening with you, I would think that when she first saw you at the casino she might have said something more along the lines of “Came to join us, huh?”

Asking you to sit with her at the roulette table and remaining with you after the others left, including the other guy trying to lay claim, says to me that she doesn’t so much care what he thinks, and I would suspect if they were currently an item she would have at least said something to him, which would cue you in that they were together.

The car-pool statement screams to me that there’s nothing between them. If there were, I would suspect that she would have said “I rode with him”

When she got defensive because you asked whether they were seeing each other, seems to me that there is either nothing between them, or she is trying REALLY hard to keep it hidden. I suspect that not to be the case though, because if there was, she sounds comfortable enough with you that I think she would have told you.

Agreeing to the walk with you and taking your arm indicates to me that at the very least she really didn’t care what the other guy would think. His shooting you a dirty look, but not trying to intercede tells me that he really doesn’t have much of a claim on her.

The talk about noticing your new cologne, then about the oil rub down after showering, seems at least a bit flirtatious to me. Granted women may flirt with guys that they have no intention of dating, but as jealous as the other guy was acting, if there were anything between them, I think she would have sensed that it bothered him and she would have cooled it a bit.

He got in between the two of you, she did not walk back in and go to him! Another good sign.

Again, he sat beside her and put his arm on the back of her chair. But, how did she react or respond? And, when he then took her out to talk, I’m curious as to how she reacted, which should have given at least some indication of the actual relationship between them.

The team leader’s statement about them seeing each other tells me that the other guy isn’t trying to cover up any relationship they might have or he thinks they have. But, I’m with Tisha here, in that with all the alone time you had with her, I think that if he really did have something going with her, he would have pulled you aside and had a talk with you too.

Does that sound like something she would do?

Yep, I agree with everything Tisha says here!

Tisha’s suggestion about asking her straight out about the pother guy is the perfect lead-in to you asking her out, if she says she is not with the other guy.

Anyway, this is my take on it. Right or wrong, I can’t say for sure. But, I hope it’s at least helpful. Good luck Data! :slight_smile:

9

I’m gonna leave the suggestions to the guys with more experience. I’ll generally agree with them though. I think that they are right on about Sarah giving you an opening. You should take it.

I’d more like to provide you (though it doesn’t look like you need it) support in your recent experiences of divorce, etc..

The last couple years have been slightly painful for me, but eye opening. Perhaps I’m a little cynical now, but I realize that relationships only exist dependant on the desires of both people. It’s a dog eat dog world when it comes to relationships. You either get the girl, or he does. Make it you. If she does indeed feel that she wants you, then take it, who cares what the hell that guy thinks. Even if it starts conflict, if the girl is worth it to you, then accept the potential for conflict and be ready, but keep asserting your desire to be with her. Be willing to fight for her.

I’d also like to share a bit of my dad’s story. He separated my mom 11 years ago, but didn’t divorce until 3 years ago. During that time, he didn’t really date around for 3-4 years. I’m not sure about the exact timeline, but once my mom starting dating around, he revealed that he was dating around too (and very well I might add :smiley: young, Korean college girls :smiley: yes, he’s an OG! :slight_smile:)

In anycase, he went through girl after girl. He dated and dated and dated, until he met his current girlfriend. After dating all those other girls again, he realized none of them had what he was looking for until he met his GF. She was in a broken marriage as well at the time, also going through a nasty divorce. They secretly shared a relationship for about a year until she was fully divorced. (My dad is a professor and she was a former student so there was potential for political backlash if he wasn’t careful, this is in Korea btw) Then he was more open about his relationship, not formally announcing it, but going out with her more often and introducing me to her. When he finally divorced with my mom, he started formally introducing her. They probably won’t get married again, but they both seem much happier.

You’ll come out of this divorce much happier too. Have to courage to pursue what truly makes you happy. As long as you have only positive intentions for yourself and others, do what you need to do!

I’d wish you luck but you won’t need it…jk :smiley: Good luck anyways!

10

Data4, you are awesome dude. Keep that fact in mind. There is an old fable about a fox who was looking for some grapes. He spotted some hanging from a limb just a little out of his reach. He gathered up all his strength and leaped as high as he could. His jaw snapped shut on thin air. “Hmmph” he said. “Those grapes are probably sour anyway.” and he went looking for more grapes. Be the fox.

11

Heh, I’m not sure Aesop wrote the fable with that meaning in mind, but it’s still valid in its own way. He originally meant it in a manner such as: Guy tries pheromones once. Doesn’t see any hits so he declares pheromones phoney. Goes off looking for other magic potions to improve his social/love life.

But your new interpretation is also valid in this situation: Guy tries to get girl, she isn’t as available as he originally thought, so he goes for a girl that is more available.

12

Hey, Phya, is your dad Gegogi, by any chance? Hehe, just kidding. :slight_smile:

I appreciate all the advice, guys. Gonna absorb and think about it for a little while, then post my thoughts a little later.

http://www.pheromonetalk.com/../images/misc/Undisclosed.gif

I’m glad to see that my initial thoughts about the situation aren’t just my own, as I feel like if there IS anything between Sarah and (let’s give him a name too) Jerry it’s not serious enough to turn me away.

-D4

13

Where are you at in Wa state?

14

I’m in Graham, about 15-20 miles south of Tacoma.

15

Phya, I think Aesop’s fox was a beta fox who had made fun of someone else’s shortcomings and then tried to justify his own. The fox I’m talking about is wearing A314 and knows if he’s done his best that he need not suffer over grapes that may or may not be worth the effort since there are plenty of grapes in the woods.

16

Dating someone from work has the potential to add complications to both the work and personal facets of your life.

Be careful.

17

We’re on different shifts, so it’s not as likely to cause too many complications. I’m also thinking of transferring to a different area and going to first shift, which would keep us away from eachother on the clock, but allow for after-work time together.

I’m planning the move anyway, regardless of whether I hit it off with her or not. Second shift is the worst when it comes to trying to have a social life.

-D4

18

Heh, no, but from the posts I’ve read, they have seem to have a lot in common, including worldviews..but Gegogi’s in paradise, my dad’s in Korea. :stuck_out_tongue:

As for Sarah, fa sho! Go get her!

19

Ah ha! That is another way to see it. A subtle difference in interpretation but significant nonetheless. Thank you. I wasn’t able to see it that way before. Makes me wonder what other ‘shortcomings’ of mine I am blind to. :slight_smile:

20

Ah-ite, it’s off to bed I go, but I’ve got a little plan for tomorrow. Gonna arrive a half hour early, traffic permitting, and have a little convo with Sarah to the tune of something like this:

“So… how much of Friday do you remember?”

She’ll give her answer, and probably ask me why.

“Do you remember the little lie you told?” As I talk, I’ll be sort of orbitting her job, acting like I’m checking out what she’s doing from a purely co-worker point of view. Main thing is that my body language won’t be open directly to her like I’m seeking anything. She’ll probably act like she doesn’t know what I’m talking about.

“You know, when we were playing roulette, and you fibbed about you and Jerry?” I’m not even going to guess her reaction here, but my follow up will be the same regardless. “Yeah, I dunno… I mean, there was something I was going to ask you, but I’m not sure if I can trust you now.” Hopefully this will be a DLV spike on her and she’ll feel some need to qualify herself. At the very least, she’ll bug me about the question.

“I’m going to have to think about it… maybe tomorrow… we’ll see.” and then walk off. After that, I’ll just play it by ear. We all know what often happens to best laid plans, and there’s only so much I can anticipate.

I’ll cook up some kind of phero mix to use for this, too, and will post what it is. Wish me luck! Good night!

-D4