IOI... MPB... AND False Positives

Field Reports & Anecdotal Experience Men's Pheromone Advice & Field Reports
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Ladies and Gents: Hi from traderneil in Sin City

Todays topic a thought that has occured to me on several occasions and I was wondering if any of you experienced similar reactions

Thanks to the wonderful Ladies on this forum I learned about Indicators of Interest,Male Pattern Blindness and other male & female words of interaction…But in defense of MEN may I suggest that FP be also added to our vocabulary for the False Postives that women sometimes project on us…

Example.#1 You see a lady you like, and she seems to show a lot of interest in you, so you step up the program and put your best foot foward,the relationship goes fine Until…THE MOMENT OF TRUTH!!! What Nothing Happened!!!( Women generally hold all the cards)
So you say what did I do wrong…NOTHING… perhaps
she was just experimenting , to see how far she could go, maybe had no interest in the first place…but was rather just showcasing her sexual attractiveness …so when the MOMENT OF TRUTH Arrived. SHE QUIT THE PROGRAM.. THIS IS A False Positive…PUTTING OUT SUGGESTIONS WITH NO FOLLOW THROUGH (for her own Safety and Gratification)

Example #2 Your a very friendly guy, well liked, nice to everyone
and a woman is interested in you, but she may not be pleasing to your taste > She gives you constant IOI, but you don’t persue her because you
don’t like her…Your still the same guy,you don’t change your demeanor
So that is not a false positive.. nor is it FPB YOU JUST DIDN’T have Interest so you don’t follow through on it.

Example #3 You see a beautiful woman she exhibits IOI and You repond with your IOI,both of you on best behavior, It continues past the first meeting and goes on…the next thing you know your at her house Laying Tile or Painting,and she gives you a little affection but its based on the amount of work you do ,when the work is done so are you…( I see a lot of this happening with both young and older women as well)

So in Defense of MEN we are weak We are dumb but we know what we like and What we want…Great lovin, Great Kissing,Great Sex…traderneil Sin City :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: (and we will work on improving our interpretations of IOI & MPB) ..

WildFlower's Pheromone Experiences.
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Traderneil, I’m surprised at you … laying tile or painting without any sort of prepayment? LOL.

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Re: lady #1 … could be you’re right, she was just flexing her mantrap muscles. Could be all kinds of other reasons, too. You know, when I hear about PUA working a room, taking numbers, most of them never follow up most of those contacts either, it seems. Just an ego fluffing exercise, good practice, or merely an entertaining way to spend an evening? In any case, if you’re the target of a lady like that, you enjoy the interaction, or not, and move on when it ceases being fun for you. How invested can you be, really? At that stage it really is all a game, and I’m not talking about strategy, scoring or manipulation… it’s play.

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lady 1 sounds more like shes flirting,not giving IOIs,which to me are a nebulous subject to begin with. on the IOI list is hair flipping. i do that at home, does that mean im interested in me? so it is possible you are seeing things you believe are IOIs and they are misinterpreted. also, flirting is done for fun’s sake, not as a means to an end. if she is flirting, she doesnt necessarily want you to take her home.

the tile and painting issues are hilarious.
many times i have been offered to have my car looked at, my pc fixed, or something done for me i didnt ask help with. in all situations id have to say no no no, only because even if they genuinely just wanted to help, what if they expected affection in return? ewww. forget THAT, if your helping in hopes of securing some lovin’, hopefully you learn after putting in your FIRST FLOOR! or…take your time and be a friend. if shes worth it,then its worth doing for her.

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Speak for yourself. This man is not dumb or weak, and does not lay tile, paint or do anything else to bribe a woman for affection or sex. Weak men deserve what they get. If I want a woman, and she thinks I am going to lay tile for any sort of attention, she can go find someone else. The difference between the man in example #3 and me is… I WANT her. I don’t NEED her. And being dumb and weak and needy is very unattractive. That’s why women usually respond to self confidence well in spite of other factors not necessarily being entirely in a man’s favor.

If a woman gives IOIs and she’s not serious, she’s either baiting you for fun or distracting you from something. The former is jerking your chain (usually a very attractive woman who doesn’t respect men for being so easily led) and the latter … hmmm.
.

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Wouldn’t you say that an IOI just means that at this moment part of her (and maybe it’s helpful to think of all of us, men and women, as having a community of mind where each module ‘wants’ different things) finds you attractive? No more than that… Once you have recognised the situation you can decide where to take things.

For that to lead anywhere further means that you have to do everything else right (Mystery likens it to playing a video game where there are twelve levels but no save feature - screw up and you are right back at the beginning). But just because one subsequently screws it up (say showing too much interest too early or not finding a way to show that you appreciate her for more than her looks) doesn’t mean that it isn’t helpful to pay attention to the IOI in the first place and to become better at eliminating MPB?

Seems that while the required social skill set is broad, most guys would do a lot better if they were better just at reading signals (and while Jas will confirm I have lots to learn on this front, I feel like pheros have helped me improve).

Ah, but did you do nothing wrong? Or is it the case that more than occasionally if one had behaved differently (whilst still acting in an authentic way that is consistent with one’s personality and values) one would have been able to take things in the desired direction. Increasingly I am inclined to think it is usually the latter.

I guess one can think about the value of beliefs pragmatically. If you think the IOI was actually a false positive then you will be less inclined to initiate the next time you sees a potential IOI and more likely to spend time trying to figure out whether it’s real or not :wink: If you think you did something wrong (the last time you followed up but it didn’t lead anywhere) then you will be motivated to explore new behavioural strategies that might better achieve the desired result.

Hmmm, bad idea to post this late at night…

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Once you get in the habit of looking for IOIs, misinterpretation of signals becomes a really big issue…This is especially true when you start interpreting a woman’s behaviors and mannerisms to simply ‘see what you want to see’. ie, you want to believe a woman is attracted to you, and unconsciously justify the notion that she is attracted to you, by interpreting her body language in a manner that satisfies that end.

In the case of pheromones, there’s always the issue of having certain expectations while wearing a pheromone product, and interpreting different things in a manner that fulfills your expectations. The article mtnjim shared with us really comes to mind.

Anywhoo, this all reminds me of a situation with a good friend of mine a couple months back. He was going gaga over a lady, but was completely lost when it comes to women. He’s very much a late bloomer in certain ways, and many of the little life lessons we all learned when we were younger still seem(ed) foreign to him. I wanted to help the guy out, so one drunken night I told him I would give him something to help him out. Initially I was going to give him some pheromones, but ended up giving him a copy of double your dating by David D instead; along with a couple of random articles about seduction and attraction I’ve picked up over the years.

He read all of the stuff I gave him, but I think the only thing that really sunk in with him was learning to read IOIs. Long-story made short, he started unreasonably interpreting different things about her behavior, mannerisms, body language etc, without building any real solid ground with her. He saw more in their relationship than what was really there, simply because he wanted to believe something was there. It all eventually blew up in his face…creating a whole lot of awkwardness in the process.

It kinda sucked for him initially, and I still give him shit about it to this day…but he did learn his lesson it. This past summer in fact, he even snagged himself an official ‘ladyfriend’.

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IOI’s and False Positives?
IOI’s may certainly be fake (as in polite or ‘with a hidden agenda’). Although it seems there was never really a hidden agenda in the example above(? atleast not from the woman!) Men however, DO have a tendency to create opportunities for themselves to try and manipulate attraction by being kind and generous in a non-alpha-way.

Don’t get me wrong. There’s nothing wrong with being nice, but when the male (hidden) agenda is to exchange tilework for kisses, it’s gotta be OHHH so wrong!

I’ve stopped calibrating to IOI’s. I’ve even stopped looking for them, as I’ve found that they’re never (ever ever ever!) a necessary element in being succesful with women (not to mention the dangers of misinterpreting them to suit your inner wishes).

I concentrate on other parts of the logistics. Assume IOI’s are bound to appear, rather than trying to create them. Then …

… live happily ever after.

My three nickles worth (and a dime)
Chris.

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Do you think this becomes more of a danger if one focuses overly on women that happen to be around you already rather than going out there and talking to lots of people whilst keeping some part of you attuned to the recently acquired additions to your social vocabulary ? Small, biased sample …

Also, to return to the idea of beliefs having a pragmatic value - given tolerable social skills is it not better strategically to err on the side of seeing IOIs as present when they are not (rather than the other way round :wink:? Faint heart never won fair maiden, or as Neil Strauss puts it, ‘it is always on’. I guess this presumes some ability to recover gracefully :wink:

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Traderneil, What you describe is called ‘testing the man’. Simply to find out his calibre.

Many women would instinctively do that, whether to reach a specific conclusion, or just to polish the skill.

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Hi again and thanks to everybody who responded. This post was not intended to suggest that Women or Men are not capable of individual thought. Women by their nature are caregivers, and as such have a sensitive dispositions,and must exercise good judgement in their intimate encounters.

Quote:
I have a neighbor she is Vietnamese early 40’s works as a cocktail waitress at a Major Casino Hotel here in town,she is not beautiful, but is Exotic looking and the guys like her..SHE TELLS ME… when I want something done around the house that I can’t do I just smile and ask the boys to do it…She says they never take the money,and thats all I offer!!!

Conclusion:
So it seems that we all agree that Ladies can an sometimes put out IOI with a different intention then Men see,(or interpret) which would then be a False Positive and that some males still have difficulty in distinguishing Reality from Fantasy as to when a women is really making herself available resulting in MPB…

traderneil Sin City :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

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I think the only way a guy can get a false positive on genuine IOIs is if he’s not paying attention. Genuine IOIs come in clusters. They’re subconscious for the most part. Fake ones, designed to tease, test, or trick, are conscious, and come onesy-twosey. If you’re observant, you’ll usually be able to see through this because there won’t be a “supporting cast”. Also, if you’re really keepn, you’ll notice that women will give mixed signals in body language when they’re giving IOIs they don’t really mean. They will almost always give indicators of interest consciously, and indicators of repulsion or disinterest subconsciously.

A big test is if her mouth disagrees with what her eyes are “saying”. Posture that’s overly contrived gives it away too. You can’t fake dialated pupils, either… and so on.

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I couldn’t agree with you more actually.

The level of a person’s social skills has a lot to do with it. Obviously one would gain more experience by interacting with all sorts of women, not just the ones immediately there. Even if your primary targets are those who you see regularly, interacting with other women will at least provide some experience to contrast your…closer… interactions with them to.

Experience is something that no amount of literature could ever replace. This was something I understimated when I gave my friend all the reading material. He lacked the social experience toto make the distinction between normal behavior/mannerisms, and true IOI’s. I honestly think he had a chance with her, if his execution was right…I was hoping the books would help with the execution. Instead, he took the material and interpreted it in a way that helped justify his feelings, hopes, and expectations, came on way too hard/serious, and messed it all up.

Once you build that experience though, the sense of attraction between you and a lady is really unmistakable. The feeling of attraction…the spark between a man and a woman…I’ve yet to read a book or article that really captured that sensation. Its just one of those things thats hard to verbalize, but in the heat of the moment when its happening, its very real.

Another thing I should add…

A lot of guys may fall victim to ‘male pattern blindness’, but I would argue that this isn’t always the case. Women have a very overt method of making advances on someone they’re attracted to…but this makes it much easier for men to overtly turn them down. There have been a number of instances where I’ve turned down the advances of a lady I wasn’t attracted to, simply by playing dumb. Saves a whole lot of awkwardness.

Definately…but like you said, the social skills have to be there. Other than the fact that its (usually) better to try and fail, rather that not try at all; the way you think and feel at any given moment of time will be transmuted and projected in the way you carry yourself and act. If you think and feel attractive, chances are you will appear more attractive. David DeAngelo mentions putting yourself in a confident state of mind before approaching women, by visualizing how you feel in your most confident moments, and forcing yourself to ‘snap into’ that mindset.

The theory of autosuggestion takes this concept to a bit of an extreme. The idea behind it is that by making conscious ‘suggestions’ about how you want to feel in your mind, you will unconsciously adapt your behavior to make them a reality.

The way I see it…before one can expect a woman to be attracted him, he must genuinely believe that he is attractive in her eyes…or at least believe that she would/could be attracted to him under the right circumstances. Not that one should delude himself unreasonably, but a positive state of mind goes a long way.

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Ladies and Gents

My original thought after reading the MPB post here,was Yes these ladies are correct. I started to watch how men and women interacted looking for more details. I did notice that a lot of men were unaware of the suggestions that women seem to be sending.

Now the question is Do we ignore womens suggestions on purpose? Are we really looking for female company,or do we just think that we want it?
How many of you guys feel that the relationship may cost more than you are willing to sacrifice? Do you make a Big Deal out of small issues?

Are we exhibiting the same type of behavior as a construction worker whistling at female passers bye because we think that is what is expected of us. Or are we really so BLIND as to miss a great opportunity,when a Lady chooses us… do we only feel comfortable meeting women in places like clubs or bars instead of Libraries or Supermarkets??? Do we only see indicators of women we like,and skip all the others..or are we too busy to enjoy a GOOD THING.

Ladies do you always give out strong signal strength? Males do require direction, and more dialogue (because it is easy to misread intent) Ladies give us stronger clues to win your affections…traderneil Sin City :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

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i watch that there are quite the number of women that give IOI in the direction of “im looking for for a nite…maybe 5…but reguardless no commitment”
with that said, the same woman can give IOI in the direction of “omg i wouldnt mind if you stuck around forever” .
im not sure that its about the interest, more the KIND of interest.
some men interpret it all as if its only a matter of sex… or not.
in our heads, our interest may be no where NEAR sex… atleast not THAT day.
big time/space difference.
guys might think “either sex is in our future or it isnt”
girls think “coffee is in our future,or isnt…depending on how he interprets my interest and then acts on it.if he interprets my interest that i must want him, then he is only looking for sex, and then either i am for it or against it.” this part of the conversation is where guys recieve that thought “wow i got a false positive!” no, you didnt. i was interested, and then i didnt like where your IOI was directed.

does any of this make sense???
i doubt women are playing with your minds and testing their attractiveness and just playing games. as a bartender i would hear women say all the time “he’s cute. oh wait, he’s staring at every chick walking through the door. never mind, he’s looking for one night”
i dont speak for every woman, just my 12 yr drink-slinging perspective.

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What sort of IOIs does a woman give, from your experience, when she’s thinking “no commitment” versus “interested in commitment”?

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Hi again from Traderneil Sin City:

LOR…Thanks for a great post with great information

What I am looking for specifically in this topic on IOI MPB And False Positives are what women do when they are looking for action

(10/29 Post MX141 MPB) Almost all men will not accurately see a womans Sign of Interest or Flirting even when the woman is doing everything she can to be obvious…(What does she want?)

Women often talk about this when they get together for a Little Girl Talk…
I was literally throwing myself at him but he was too stupid to notice,then they all have a good laugh at Mens expense (Quote) (Was she looking for Sex?)

Now the question: If a Woman throws herself at a man and he misses the suggestion is he blind, or does he believe that the women isn’t serious, and will back out when THE MOMENT OF TRUTH ARRIVES …

Do some women test their signal strength on us because so many men haven’t responded the way women think we should? Do women really feel that Men don’t want to br pursued??? Do women send out false positives because they don’t really want a partner they just think they do? Why not just give us males better direction,tell us what your thinking,were not smart enough to read minds :slight_smile::slight_smile::slight_smile:

I would venture a guess that most men would welcome a womens attention, and because we are males we would try to close the deal
with GUSTO … traderneil Sin City :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

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You men are all making this wayyyyy too complicated.

All of your silly games and gumff go hardly any distance at all with us - seriously.

Pay attention to Lor. I could virtually carbon-copy what she said, as what I would have said to you, as I find it highly amusing how badly men HERE seem to read women, and how often bloody sex comes into every damn equation.

Here’s a hint - IT DOES NOT!!

By the same token, many women are up for one-night stands in exactly the same way as many men are. How do you read them, and know that is 150% the case? Simple, they are the ones doing EXACTLY what you are trying to do to them - to you.

Ail :slight_smile:

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Wow, this post is something that really helped put things in perspective for me. I have experienced a lot of “Example #1” that traderneil posted…girls seemingly very into me but pull back once I start being into them. Thanks Lor for this explanation, I will definitely know better from now.

And thanks Ail for that explanation of how they are doing the same things, that’s interesting, I’ll be trying to notice it from now on.

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no commitment IOI s will be easy… they have smoooooth messages to them. they are more like flirting than messages they dont know they are giving out! if a girl does not want commitment but really wants you, there is NO doubt in my mind there is a question here. we are not shy giving that message out. we are only shy when we want commitment down the road and dont want to ruin it.look for eye contact that doesnt look away…if your not conversating but shes staring you down…dont make any other plans that nite LOL
there will always be women though that think putting out imediately will make you marry them, but they are few in number and still sometimes right, hahahahaha :smiley:
so if a gal seems to be giving IOIs that even she is not aware shes giving, its likely the liking you is genuine. she AINT going to ruin that having sex with you anytime SOON.
clumsiness is a good IOI. dropping things does NOT mean she wants you LOL, but that she thinks your worth knowing and nervousness implies she doesnt want you to know right away im guessing.
hairflipping can go either way.
i doubt the leg crossing or uncrossing has anything to do with anything :roll_eyes:

id be seriously looking for stuttering, hair twirling (although we do that on the phone too so dont get too excited) clumsiness, looking down once eye contact is made and often, blank answers instead of informative ones, avoidance (which men take for “im not interested” atleast 50% of the time, means i am interested but not the way you want me to be)
a commitment gal will run from you if she likes you but knows your looking for something opposite.

bottom line is that i believe…with all the watching from afar…that women and men dig each other FAR MORE OFTEN AND MORE GENUINELY than previously believed…and that the scoring part- although equally as important- suddenly fades at the thought that you might be able to score much more often with this particular person as yours forever.

man, i heard myself say that and thought “ewwww”.
hey heres a thought-
dolphins love the one their with, dont mate for life…
what do you think people wearing dolphin pendants are subconciously implying?