I don’t have a problem with you at all Diane. I didn’t ask you not to report or tell you what effects to report. In fact I rep you all the time and I am the one who nominated most your nominated threads.
I do have a problem with blankets statements though and since you asked on the forum I will explain why on the forum.
The above quote is a “one size fits all statement.” Mones are not one size fits all. My function here is to not just make the people play nice and look pretty. I watch out for the new people and make sure they receive the most accurate information they can. You can ask any of the regular people who reply in the intro section. I will call them on it when they do it up there. I politely asked you about it in post number 6 Pheromones for Sleep Issues - #6 by tisha23
You responded to me and I responded back saying this …
I didn’t say people didn’t report on it, I said my finding were different. I compile information not just from the forum but from people I have do blind testing for me.
Your reply stated you were not the first person to report this which I had already said above your post. I was just pointing out that if you read on in Lors posts and subsequent posts from the other members then you would see they acclimated. A lot of people report headaches, Cerebral pressure, tiredness or sleepiness when the first test a molecule. These are side effects. In 9 out of the 10 cases this side effect subsides after repeated use. The self effects of Bnol are comfort calm ease connection trust and for you sedation. These self effect remain for half the users after repeated use. For some like Gegogi they dont get self effects.
It corrects it for a few, not for everyone. What makes mones worth investing in then? … Mones are not used or sold for self effects excluding IFM of course which is one of the few that seems to hang onto its calming effect . They are to effect other people. Sure there are some who like the self effects but just like with your own natural mones. You do begin to not notice them as much.
Its like… They sort of become part of your wardrobe. When you buy a new dress the first 4 or 5 times you wear it you notice it more. You feel pretty and sexy. If you wear it once a week for a while it becomes same old same old, You know its there, you like it, but the initial feelings and excitement and newness are gone. However that doesn’t mean other people wont notice it on you and react to it. Thats how mones work. If someone is with you 24/7 they will also get accustomed to your mones and not feel the effects as strongly. They still react to the signal but not in the same fashion as they did when you first wore them. This as I said if from constant exposure, like the user gets from wearing them. Since I use mones primarily to cause reactions in others. I feel they are well worth buying. If the only reason you use them is to effect yourself then no mones wont help you and are not worth buying for a long term solution.
So you see… I have no problem with you, I think your interesting and smart. Plus I have just as much right to ask people questions and have a opinion as the rest of you. Now if you have a problem with that I am sorry but… it is what it is.
No, I’m not offended. I’m confused why you keep equating my findings on this molecule with side effects.
My only point in all this is this: The effects of Beta Androstenol on me are consistent through time and with every application and in every mix, including my initial testing of the pheromone alone. These effects are not side effects. They are the main effects, and the reason this is one of my core pheromones.
I’ve gone into quite a bit of detail about those effects are in my journals and in various posts. I’ve used this molecule nearly every day in varying amounts and in varying ratios for over three months, so I know what those effects are very well. I’m very comfortable not only using this molecule but reporting on what it does to me and to my husband and children.
My husband in his normal state while not exposed to any pheromones, is tense, prickly, selfish, avoidant, short-tempered, irritable, non-communicative, controlling and competitive, thoughtless, and uninterested in sex. All that has changed with my pheromone testing and tweaking and use. He is now relaxed, communicative, loving, cuddly, sexy, flirty, thoughtful and attentive, less competitive and more team-oriented, happy, contented, generous, and more sexually aggressive. His former self rarely shows up and only on my pheromone free days. I am more relaxed, more sensual, more appreciative, more thoughtful, more generous, and happier. All this is by targeted design.
It is because I am categorizing each pheromone as I test it, and trying to choose and use each one not only for self effect… that is just a nice bonus… but to improve the state of our relationship in every aspect. I’m not blindly stumbling about on some pheromone drug trip, though it may seem so when I report on some of the very nice mixes I’ve found. I haven’t settled for better alone, and I’ve tested a ton of pheromones. I’ve liked some pheromone’s effects but ended up discarding further use of it because it either wasn’t quite good enough, or because the combined effects when worn with some other, better pheromones was not good. I keep what works, works well, and works well with the other pheromones I choose to keep.
Our relationship is nearly perfect now and I’m very happy with my decision to use pheromones for this purpose. Everything I’m testing now is icing on the cake, and to build on the very nice foundation I’ve been able to establish in our relationship with my core pheromones. My core relationship pheromones are: TAF, Beta Androstenol, Est, and Meo-Est. For sexual effects my core pheromones are TAF, Meo-Est, Cops, Androstenone, TAC, P102 and P103. On days when I am not wearing any of these and my husband gets very irritable, I use P74 or MX274 to bring down his arousal level and lessen his irritation. I usually don’t wear those anymore at home, but I spray his area with it and that works.
My oldest son (my husband’s child from a former marriage) finds Beta Androstenol makes him feel extremely relaxed and very, very good. When I first exposed him to Beta Androstenol, his first response was “What is this stuff! I feel so good!” and he visibly relaxed his whole body. His girlfriend wrote long romantic metaphorical piece when exposed to it. My two younger sons become centered and relaxed around it and fuss with each other less. My husband becomes relaxed and finds meaningful communication easier (he’s usually verbally recalcitrant) and it makes him more receptive to being touched. I find it extremely relaxing to the point of alleviating all anxiety and for me it is a sleep aid, which I’ve used at least a dozen times alone in the past 3 months for this effect. At 50.0 mcg and over Beta Androstenol short circuits my short term memory for about 20 minutes and then gives me a deeply mystical feeling that persists. It is relaxing, not sedating, for me. It is relaxing, not sedating, for my husband and children.
I’m surprised anyone would find this molecule to be energizing in any way since I have not seen that effect first hand in myself or anyone exposed to me when I’ve worn it. So my first question would be, “What are you wearing it with?” I’m not saying it isn’t energizing for some people. I’m just saying I haven’t personally seen it.
Its not Physically energizing it mentally energizing. Makes the mind busy, You may feel tired or sedated but the mind wont rest therefore you wont sleep.
What am I wearing it with ? Well over the last 9 years of wearing and studying mones I have worn it with just about every molecule offered here and some not publicly offered, . Its one of my standards when not testing something new as well. I would say its my favorite mainstream Pheromone.
I’m thinking that perhaps it is because I am always mentally energized that I don’t have this effect with Beta Androstenol. My husband has never had any trouble sleeping when exposed to it even in high doses. But he is also very mental.
One of the things t I like the most about the pheromones I choose to use is that they allow me more access to the touchy-feely side of life. Beta Androstenol has that effect for me. It seems to have that effect on my husband also.
See, now when I’m not wearing beta androstenol, I am very, very interested in this molecule and want to see PET scans of men and women exposed to this and comparative PET scans of men and women exposed to Alpha Androstenol to see what the differences in brain area activation are. I want to see sex differentiated controlled double blind studies. I want MORE information, less conjecture!
Funny, but I agree with both of you two. BNols, now that you have brought it to my attention Diane, have a sense of relaxing comfort, like with an old buddy, and also mentally energizing as Tisha has pointed out.
Here’s what I’m thinking, the Beta Nols create a comfortable atmosphere in the mind which IMHO relays the mind to acquiesce into a state of wanting to share information because its OK. It’s like telling the mind I realize I never met this guy/lady, but I should share my innermost fantasies with them (exaggeration for effect). I feel a very comfortable, deep rapport with him, I can let down my guard (as Diane has posted).
So by being extremely comfortable with such an awesome person, I am so much more relaxed in my state, which enables me to take away focus from my guard into focusing onto more thought processes to release my “Deepest” thoughts. Deep thoughts come from deep within the mind and therefore have to be mined out, which as Tisha has pointed out takes serious brain activity.
Ladies, what I am saying is you both can be 100% on opposite sides of the coin, but guess what? Regardless of how you attribute the effects of BNols, on that coin, its still the SAME COIN!
But here’s the thing to also remember, as with all molecules, whether experimones, putatives or what-have-you, it’s not so much about individualized effects as it is with what the molecule can do for the general consensus. So if you Diane, you Tisha, me Steve, (individually) were to get a response that Bnols creates a sensation of putting on your dancing shoes and boogying then the question is would this be that side affect or would it be a main proponent of the molecule itself? Well for each of us it may very well be the main proponent of the molecule, but would Joe Advice seeker also get that effect?
In many instances Joe advice seeker most likely, not being acclimated to the actual affects of the molecule would not see that as an affect, and most surely would be let down. There is a certain learning curve with molecules and putatives that is not as easy as say Ammo or Isexi. Where as the main consensus is that Bnols are more acclimated to create deep rapport, the effects we obtain neurologically are all correct, but in the same sense with absolute certainty going to be different from Joe Advice Seekers.
Does this mean that either of you are wrong? No! In fact I believe you are both 100% accurate and as I have so eloquently pointed out , on the same coin, just opposite sides of the coin, which if we were to look at it on a spectrograph is still within reason of the graph and therefore correct.
Everybody has an opinion on molecules and this my friends is exactly what research is all about. Therefore all we can do is point out “our” results and allow for Joe Advice Seeker to sift through the reports and figure it out for himself what BNols are going to do for him.
On a side note, IMHO if you are having issues sleeping, you need to figure out what it is inside your own self that is going to resolve that issue. You have an internal imbalance and pheromones, like everything else you tried are not going to work to cure your insomnia. They are designed to do what they have been designed to do, but with obvious very different contrasts to their effects as reported in this post. What one believes is a main component is anothers side-effects, but irregardless are not magic and are not designed to resolve these kinds of issues. Pheromones are not your answer and do not solve problems like depression, anxiety, cancer, insomnia, swamp breath, whatnot.
I highly suggest you seek out a naturalist and discover your imbalance and resolve it with nutrition.
Amazing the numbers of people hoping to cure depression, anxiety, insomnia and whatnot with mones. Life would be so simple if it were true: avoid showers for a week or two, sniff pits and–bam–healed! And these hopeful searches also highlight a basic misunderstanding about what mones are and do. My first exposure to mone was the nature channel on cable. I watched a program where they showed insects and lower mammals responding to mones with involuntary behavior such as attraction and mating. Damn I thought, wouldn’t it be great to use that on women. Of course I didn’t realize humans exercise freewill and our socialization often works against biological urges. Shucks! But still it’s fun to have biology on your side with gentle suggestions for behavior. Once in a while they actually take the bait.
Uh… actually, some pheromones do have antidepressant and mood lifting effects. Studies have shown both Androstadienone and alpha-Androstenol have this effect.
I found all the following and many more studies on Medline. The studies are double blind and controlled to weed out social factors and placebo effect.
I tried to place hyperlinks to the actual studies, but you’ll need a log-in for Medline. I think Medline searches are still free, but they do require registration.
If you want I can post the abstracts to the Studies and Abstracts area of the forum for you.
The pheromone androstenol (5 alpha-androst-16-en-3 alpha-ol) is a neurosteroid positive modulator of GABAA receptors.
There’s a huge difference between curing the root cause of something and treating the symptom. I’ve used A-1 for 5 years to help temporarily counter symptoms of PMS in my woman. Works great for a little gentle mood lift. However temporarily suspressing a symptom such as depression is not the same thing as “curing” it. Take away the A1 and the problem is still there. The root causes of depression, anxiety and insomnia may be temporary and simply due to a poor lifestyle, or they may be serious mental and/or physical disorders–disorders potentially able to destroy your life. To actually cure them it takes more than a zap or dab of mones. And to think you can treat serious problems such as these with mones is a dangerous path indeed. But wouldn’t it be nice if it were so!
Actually, I recently read a peer-review article where therapeutic uses of certain pheromones are being explored specifically to treat depression. I’ll try to dig up that article for you.
Okay, I didn’t find the exact article, but here is one that basically says the same thing, except this is a study, not a discussion.
Neuroactive steroids reduce neuronal excitability by selectively enhancing tonic inhibition mediated by delta subunit-containing GABAA receptors.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003; 100(24):14439-44 (ISSN: 0027-8424)
** Neuroactive steroids are potent modulators of gamma-aminobutyric acid type A receptors (GABAARs), and their behavioral effects are generally viewed in terms of altered inhibitory synaptic transmission. Here we report that, at concentrations known to occur in vivo, neuroactive steroids specifically enhance a tonic inhibitory conductance in central neurons that is mediated by extrasynaptic delta subunit-containing GABAARs. The neurosteroid-induced augmentation of this tonic conductance decreases neuronal excitability. Fluctuations in the circulating concentrations of endogenous neuroactive steroids have been implicated in the genesis of premenstrual syndrome, postpartum depression, and other anxiety disorders.** Recognition that delta subunit-containing GABAARs responsible for a tonic conductance are a preferential target for neuroactive steroids may lead to novel pharmacological approaches for the treatment of these common conditions. (Emphasis is mine.)
and from above:
The pheromone androstenol (5 alpha-androst-16-en-3 alpha-ol) is a neurosteroid positive modulator of GABAA receptors.
…]Androstenol is structurally similar to endogenous A-ring reduced neurosteroids that act as positive modulators of GABA(A) receptors. Here we show that androstenol has neurosteroid-like activity as a GABA(A) receptor modulator…] Systemic administration of androstenol (30-50 mg/kg) caused anxiolytic-like effects in mice in the open-field test and elevated zero-maze and antidepressant-like effects in the forced swim test (5-10 mg/kg). …] The various actions of androstenol in the whole-animal models are consistent with its activity as a GABA(A) receptor modulator. GABA(A) receptors could represent a target for androstenol as a pheromone, for which it is well suited because of high volatility and lipophilicity, or as a conventional hormonal neurosteroid. (Emphasis is mine.)
So Androstenol has anti-anxiety and anti-depressant qualities by acting directly on the brain neurotransmitter pathways implicated in depression, anxiety, PMS, and other mood disorders. This is what anti-anxiety and antidepressant medications do, except that anti-anxiety medications and anti-depressants are a sledge hammer approach with a ton of drawbacks.
Oh, and before someone points out that pheromones aren’t drugs because they are sniffed, not internalized… I’ve read a ton of articles and studies today showing proof of a humoral pathway for Androstenol - absorption into the bloodstream through the mucosa of the nose and transport directly to the brain, rather than simply binding to receptors in the nose.
Some pheromones act as neurosteroids… And what if… what if… medical treatment with neuroactive pheromones becomes the prefered treatment of depression? After all, that is what some antidepressants act on… the endogenous neuroactive steroids. Why not cut out a step in the process with so many side effects if it becomes possible?
“Fluctuations in the circulating concentrations of endogenous neuroactive steroids have been implicated in the genesis of premenstrual syndrome, postpartum depression, and other anxiety disorders. Recognition that delta subunit-containing GABAARs responsible for a tonic conductance are a preferential target for neuroactive steroids may lead to novel pharmacological approaches for the treatment of these common conditions.”
In layman’s terms this means: Rising and falling amounts of circulating neuroactive steroids (like Androstenol and others) have been implicated in the creation of states of PMS, postpartum depression, and anxiety. Recognizing the specific brain-pathway receptors involved that bind strongly to neuroactive steroids can lead to new forms of treatment.
Here’s another:
Neuroactive steroids: mechanisms of action and neuropsychopharmacological perspectives
Steroids influence neuronal function by binding to intracellular receptors that can act as transcription factors and regulate gene expression. In addition, some so-called ‘neuroactive steroids’ are potent modulators of an array of ligand-gated ion channels and of distinct G-protein coupled receptors via nongenomic mechanisms, and they can influence sleep and memory. This article describes how these neuroactive steroids modulate neurotransmitter receptors and addresses the neuropsychopharmacological potential that arises from the intracellular crosstalk between genomic and nongenomic steroid effects. Neuroactive steroids could also have a role in the response to stress and the treatment of psychiatric disorders, such as depression, and, as they affect a broad spectrum of behavioral functions through their unique molecular properties, they could constitute a yet unexploited class of drugs. (Emphasis is mine.)
Here is another:
Effects of Antidepressant Treatment on Neuroactive Steroids in Major Depression
**(Am J Psychiatry 1998; 155:910–913)
Elena Romeo, M.D., Andreas Ströhle, M.D., Gianfranco Spalletta, M.D., Flavia di Michele, M.D., Bettina Hermann, Ph.D., Florian Holsboer, M.D., Ph.D., Augusto Pasini, M.D., and Rainer Rupprecht, M.D.OBJECTIVE: There is evidence from animal studies that fluoxetine may enhance the concentrations of neuroactive steroids. Therefore, the authors investigated whether clinically effective treatment with antidepressants may alter the concentrations of neuroactive steroids in patients suffering from a major depressive episode. **
METHOD: In the first study, eight drug-naive outpatients with major depression were studied during treatment with fluoxetine. In a complementary study, 11 inpatients with major depression were studied during a severe depressive episode and after recovery following treatment with different antidepressants. Plasma samples were quantified for neuroactive steroids by means of a highly sensitive and specific combined gas chromatography/mass spectrometry analysis. RESULTS: During depression, there was a significant decrease in 3
-THP levels. This dysequilibrium of neuroactive steroids could be corrected by treatment with different antidepressants. CONCLUSIONS: These results provide the first clinical evidence of a possible role of neuroactive steroids in successful antidepressant therapy. (Emphasis is mine.)
Good goddess Di, do you have on P80 ? You seem spartan like LOL
The word conjecture is rather strong and discrediting. I know you dont mean it that way but the experienced members and Steve Jasmin and myself have studied mones extensively and done alot of testing and research. While we cant offer up the data you seek because of disclosure agreements that dosnt mean it dosnt exist.
We have read the many textbooks adstracts and studies as well. I do think your above contribution of studies is great and you should add it to the abtracts section of the forum. But dont discredit others experiences and feedback as purely conjecture because they dont disclose all their study and testing materials. This forum has alot of very intelligent people including yourself its our shared knowledge and experiences with mones that helps to further Androtics research.
While mones are being tested at this time by the scientific medical community it is not Androtics wish or mission at this time to suggest any product to treat any medical condition. This however does not mean that we are unaware of the studies. It is premature to advise or mislead anyone without looking at all the data and information. I know you want more scientific information and I am sorry there is to much conjecture for you here on the forum but this forum is about community and experiences as much as it is about research and developement. Its about socialization not treating medical conditions. If you want medical data or double blind testing, some of which Androtics does have and conduct. I suggest you fund and conduct them yourself. It is not something they wish to provide at this time.
This is by no means saying that you should not share your experiences or knowledge in this area. It is interesting and useful but we prefer to leave medical advice to the medical professionals.
I am not looking to have a debate on this, I have alot of intro’s to get done plus I am mostly in agreement on various aspects of what your saying. But keep in mind that some studies and abstracts you provided are done on the effect of hormones in the body. Pheromones are derived from hormones. They are byproducts. Anol within your blood stream and body is a hormone. Anol released from your body is a Pheromone. It acts differently going directly into the brain to the transmitters.
From the journal of Neurotherapeutics…
Androstenol (5α-androst-16-en-3α-ol) is a volatile steroid compound belonging to the group of 16-androstenes found in human plasma. It is structurally similar to endogenous A-ring reduced steroids that act as positive modulators of GABAA receptors, i.e., neurosteroids. Thus, we have hypothesized that androstenol may have electrophysiological and behavioral traits characteristic for neurosteroids.
In the blood stream as a Hormone it can act as a neurosteriod. It has yet to be proven if as a Pheromone (outside of the blood stream) it will act the same. Its something I am sure we will hear more about in the future though. Please keep in mind I am not saying it cant. Its just not known yet.
As you can see from most of the abstracts. This reaction is not pheromonal . The anol is injected intraperitoneally. Most Pheromones dont pass, or havnt been proven to pass through the blood brain barrier
Again this is not to say what you are claiming is invalid or to discredit you or the studies its just that it is premature to make a conclusion.
My personal belief is that while certain hormones and steriods will be effective in the treatment of certain medical conditions in the future but the pathways of administration with not be olfactory. The possibilites are there, I agree with you on that.
It is a deep and interesting area of pheromone research. Here on Pherotalk we concentrate more on the use of mones as a signaling agent.
Oh! I certainly don’t mean to discredit anyone’s experiences or reports. It is for my own comfort that I rather not conjecture - in my reports too much. Though of course I do it all the time. I conjecture, then I test… but my testing isn’t controlled, either. It is all subjective at this point for all of us, isn’t it? And of course, I don’t have any idea what is in your disclosure agreements, but I’d love to see some of that data, as you can imagine.
I’m not sure what you are referring to here, Tish. Where on this forum have I ever discredited other’s experiences and feedback? Feedback and discussion is good, I thought.
What exactly are you saying here, Tish? Are you implying or saying that I am misleading someone by sharing what I’ve learned in the literature?
As far as I know, I am only contributing to the community. Are my contributions somehow bad? Is it now policy that the scientific literature is off limits to throw open to discussion on the forum, even when it is relevant?
Wow! That’s harsh, Tish, and unfair.
Uh… actually, from the studies I found yesterday, testing that very hypothesis, Alpha Androstenol does pass the brain barrier through the nasal mucosa. But since you don’t want to debate the point, I’ll refrain from citing the sources.
Why do I feel ostracised right now, Tish? This sure feels like the classic US vs. YOU. I thought I was part of that US. I thought I was a contributing member of this community.
All this slapping at me over the past few days is making me very, very sad. Shall I just slink off to a corner and be punished for a while?
I was still referring to the word conjecture which wasn’t taken well by many.
Where did I say you are misleading anyone ? I believe I was speaking of Androtics mission not yours. I wrote…
I repetitively stressed they were not bad.
No I believe I said …
I did not ask you not to post or debate.
So was conjecture.
In a saline solution administered directly into the nose, yes it will absorb. As far as I know no one is shooting mones up there nose here. If they are please stop or the FDA will be up our asses in a nano second
Diane if you didn’t notice I agree that there are possibilities which I stated. Its the methods of delivery I dont agree with and its my personal opinion which I also stated.
I have no ideal why you would feel ostracized just because people dont agree with you. As moderator my job is to diffuse possible situation. People maybe unwarrantably were offended by the word conjecture. I dealt with it the best way I could without choosing a side. My personal opinion coincides with yours so I am unsure where those feelings are coming from. I am also very aware of my function as a moderator in protecting Androtics by avoiding making medical claim and correcting them when they are made. I am not saying you made a medical claim although the beta nol answer was close but only because you didn’t digress.
I am sorry if at some point you feel my questions in other posts are slapping you around. I asked them of you because your bright and I knew you would have a interesting answer. Perhaps I dont always agree with them but I ask to try to get your perspective on it so I can better understand what your reporting and because I do find them important. If I didn’t I would just ignore you. I will refrain from asking in the future if it makes you feel discomfort.
So all of this is over a poor choice of a word on my part? I’m sorry so many people took offense at the word “conjecture.”
But I am very confused at that, so please enlighten me.
Conjecture just means throwing thoughts together, thinking about things in different lights, forming some ideas and possibilities about it. It implies thoughtfulness and the potential for discovery.
Everything we are doing here is conjecture until the scientific controlled studies are done, isn’t it?
Without conjecture, no solid hypotheses can be formed and without hypotheses there is no starting point for pinpointing and studying anything.
Wow! I guess that is a different meaning. I never would use the word to imply a conclusion!
But, and this is an important distinction, your list above is a list of meanings of conjecture as used as a noun. I was using the word as a verb, which gives it a wholly different meaning.
As a verb, to conjecture means exactly the same as to suppose something might be possible, or to believe that data points to something, or to speculate something might be true, etc. To conjecture also means to guess, but that is not it’s only meaning, and it doesn’t mean to guess blindly even at that.
The roots of the word mean to put together, or throw together, and that implies an active property.
Do you see the difference?
But even as a noun, we don’t have proof, even all our combined testing experiences are circumstantial and ancedotal here on this forum and in our private testing lives. They don’t constitute any proof whatsoever about anything. I am not doing any double blind controlled studies. Only Tish comes close with her giving blind samples out, but even she can’t be blind to what she’s doing. And all single blind studies are flawed by their very nature. That is why double blind testing is so important to really, truly nail anything down when human subjects are involved. True, Androtics is trying to control for placebo effects with their gifts at times, but even that can only do so much. They are basically testing the tester, not the product.
But what we are doing is building up a body of possibilities for Androtics to look at when designing their mixes. I don’t know if they are taking their molecules further down the road to find out what each one does on a physiologic level. That takes big bucks, and if you’ve ever taken a look at a grant proposal for even simple studies, you’ll begin to get an inkling of how very much money that is.
But, HEY!, well, I guess we’ve hijacked the hell out of this poor thread, but I love words almost more than anything else in the world. So thanks for that.
, on the same coin, just opposite sides of the coin, which if we were to look at it on a spectrograph is still within reason of the graph and therefore correct.