Are pheromones like hypnosis, just based on suggestions? Or are they “mind control”- “obey me, slave”?
Just FYI, hypnosis involves the power of “suggestion”- trust. A person can be hypnotized only if they believe they can be hypnotized and they trust the hypnotist. You can even hypnotize yourself, and it bears a similarity to meditation. However, people who are hypnotized will not generally change deeply held beliefs, they generally won’t engage in self-harm or violence out of the blue (unless they really want to do that), and so on. At least that’s the official line from psychologists and hypnotists.
However, the idea behind “mind control” or “thought reform” is to completely break down an individuals will, strip out the hindering values and beliefs, give them new beliefs, and make them your slave.
Of course, as the suicide bomber shows, you don’t need pheromones or hypnotists to create willing human bombs that do your will. But… it takes alot of training, indoctrination, etc. You’ve got to have an ideology and theology that people can believe in. Would technology like pheromones make it any easier? Can pheromones be used for evil ends? If so, is it any easier than the “old-fashioned way?”
I’d ask on another forum, but most people would say "huh? pheromones?
I’m actually kind of worried because I AM starting to see results from pheromones, even the lowly ones I’ve got my hands on so far. Not trying to do hits picking up women, no, just ordinary social interactions- they seem strange. Or am I just deluded?
Definitely neither Hypnotic suggestion or mind control. They could in theory be used in conjunction with hypnosis or mind control techniques to facilitate a trigger response. More or less the person in question would be conditioned so that when they smell it they will set out to do whatever it is they are conditioned to do as a result of being programmed.
Pheromones more or less send out mental stimuli to the brain. These act as little neurological messages which people can choose to act upon or ignore. Some people are more subconsciously open to them than others. Others receive it, yet possess the internal means to not act upon it if they don’t wish.
If people were absolutely powerless to their effect then it would meet the proper definition of mind control or hypnosis. They influence, or suggest, but don’t entirely control. Unless the research ever advances to that point to prove otherwise. At that point there would most likely be an outright ban and supression of such research, and leave it reserved for only the elite of the elite.
Hey Daedelus, Good question! I think there are a lot of people who seem to think of pheromones as some sort of mind control. They are usually the people who are terribly disappointed with their results.
The exact mechanism by which they work is debated but in general you can think of them as a sixth sense that gives you information about someone else. Just as your eyes see an attractive person and creates a pleasant neurological response, or nose detects the smell of apple pie and causes your mouth to water, pheromones, picked up by either your normal smell receptors or a special organ in the nose, create neurological responses that tell you about the people around you.
Your response is going to be dictated by some combination of learned and instinctive behavior. There is debate about how much each type of behavior counts. We are humans though so my opinion is that learned behavior counts a lot. Of course, since there are so many immeadiate responses, there must be a large proportion of the response mechanism that is instinctive possibly genetic.
First off, let’s drop the phrase “mind control” from the discussion. Its a loaded term that does nothing but distort any discussion because one way or another people will always go back to bad hollywood movies ideas that have no basis in reality. Dealing with people that have wrong/distorted ideas is always worse than dealing with people that have no preconceived notions.
No one with any real experience with pheromones is going to say it is anything more than just suggestions/influence. Moving on.
The question becomes, “are we talking about suggestion/influence or are we talking about hypnosis?” People are subjected to influence and conditioning every day. Corporations don’t spend big bucks in advertising for no reason at all.
Alpha/theta brainwave state. Just think, in the past it would take a great deal of time/dedication for one to reach a theta state (like say a monk) but now all it takes is headphones and a good binaural beats cd. Technology is great.
Says who? Belief change is a routine part of what a skilled hypnotherapist does for a living. CDs are constantly sold to alter deeply held beliefs (generally less effective than a skilled practitioner but still also much cheaper) - sure a great many aren’t that good but that does not take away from skilled cd makers such as Lloyd Glauberman. NLP and hypnosis are a few of the very best ways of making changes to beliefs. Otherwise you are stuck with bad methods such as saying/writing affirmations over and over with the conscious mind in the hopes that eventually the unconscious mind will get the message. Doesn’t it make more sense to just use something like hypnosis to directly access the unconscious and work on that level? Working at the unconscious level, it becomes just a matter of repetition to change beliefs. The key distinction here is do you want that change?
Now to go in a darker direction, if you want the real dirt on things, ditch the world of academics and start looking at military operations. They don’t get cooperation with subjects for hypnosis so such means are rarely used. Even if torture isn’t used, various “stressors” are employed (sleep deprivation, put in very uncomfortable positions for hours/days) to break down the body to get to the mind.
Food for thought, lets move away from countries like America with sophisticated programs and go look at what was done to American pow’s during Vietnam. When breaking down pow’s the viet kong would typically try to get prisoners to forsake the United States because that would make prisoners more forthcoming in information that might help the viet kong. The viet kong quickly discovered that instead of trying to get Americans to insult their country or saying bad things about America (this produced resistance in the pow minds) it was more effective to ask if America was a perfect country. Obviously no country is perfect, and the viet kong would have the prisoners talk at length about the problems in their country. This often proved to be the crack in beliefs that allowed the viet kong to break down pow’s.
Directly attacking someone’s beliefs creates resistence, breaking down beliefs by attacking from the sides can be very effective. If a third would country could quickly learn the basics of breaking people, consider the capabilities of a developed nation with decades of sophisticated techniques. You have little to fear with pheromones or hypnosis (no matter how much cheesy hollywood movies say), but if you are going to worry about something, save it for military/intelligence agencies around the world.
As for engaging in violence, this seems to go back to the cheesy hollywood and “mind control” I’m going to ignore that.
How exactly is this different than say military bootcamp? It is even talked about in terms such as “breaking them down to build them back up.” Low ranking military personel in particular could be considered slaves, their actions are heavily controlled. And depending upon what military one is refering to, it might be an all volunteer military where people choose such an experience.
No. Ideology./theology may help facilitate, but the moment gunpowder was created suicide bombers were inevitable. What it takes is a person/group living in conditions judged so bad that hurting a militarily superior foe is deemed better than continuing to live.
Sure, pheromones could make it marginally easier, but look at cults which frequently use drugs to inhibbit critical thinking of a new inductee. No pheromone will ever be as helpful to cults as drugs are. Can pheromones be used for ‘evil’ ends? Sure, so can pencils, cell phones, rocks, everything in existence.
No one can put on say instant shine and then go tell others smelling it to go blow themselves up. A miserable life and a desire for revenge is all it will take.
There’s a poster on this forum (Tacitus) that sadly doesn’t post much anymore that would point out that in any interaction between to people, there are actually 4 elements.
Your conscious mind
Your subconscious mind
Their conscious mind
Their subconscious mind
Pheromones, just like learning about hypnosis or studying body language will make a person start to notice the subconsious, possibly for the very first time. You certainly aren’t deluded, just starting to notice another element of reality you never payed any attention to before. I went through the same thing when I first looked into body language. I went around campus with different postures noticing if someone would move out of the way or by how much people would move out of the way just through changes in posture. It seemed quite freaky that something as simple as how one walks could influence others so obviously. You do get over it though
Scaro made a lot of good points, as has Renny and Pheroah. I’m in the same boat, mind control doesn’t even come to mind when I think about pheromones.
As Scaro said, you have a lot more to worry about in terms of influences/suggestions than pheromones. Military scare/stress tactics is one aspect of influencing/suggesting. I’m working at a marketing company right now and the #1 question is how can we get customers to buy our product? Are we framing the product correctly? Targeting the proper demographic? How could we impact our target demographic better/more effectively?
We’re being influenced every day, in every way. (stupid rhymes..)
Honestly, the vast majority of society is indoctrinated/influenced/suggested from the moment they’re born, or at the very least from the moment they enter schooling. Don’t talk while the teacher’s talking. Raise your hand before speaking/asking a question. Ask permission to do things like go to the bathroom, etc…
I don’t understand how people can get so furious about ‘other people controlling’ them when they’re being controlled every moment of every day in some extent. You could argue that we’re simply abiding by a set of mutual agreements, but ultimately those mutual agreements are limiting our behavior, thus controlling it. It’s simply that not only have we been conditioned to accept those mutual agreements with no objection or resistance, but we also consider those agreements (whatever they may be) to be completely ordinary and normal and therefore possibly under the scope of daily observation.
Also, something that comes up often, is that pheromones are not much more than a cosmetic enhancement, similar to plastic surgery, make-up, nice clothing or even something as simple as alter physical behavior. Certain looks/appearances will provoke certain response in a given individual. That is influencing them. That’s not to say you can control their behavior, but you are certainly attempting to steer them in a certain direction. Classy? Grimey? Sexy? Casual? Scary? All depends on what you’re wearing or how you’re behaving.
Like Scaro, I think you’re just finally seeing how easily we can be influenced, and upon recognizing the flexibility of our minds, are a bit overwhelmed? Uneasy? That someone else might be able to influence you that easily? If we realize we’ve remained under influence our whole lives, maybe it won’t be bring up uneasy feelings? I know I did similar things with body language (standing in lines, etc..), kinda like, hey I can get people to move just by moving myself around in a certain way. Now when I’m out and about, I’m very sensitive to group positioning and I can see when people are getting cut out of conversations or being neglected, or where the center of attention is. Sometimes, if I don’t feel like talking with a certain person, I’ll just shift and everyone else shifts a bit to exclude the target. Other times, I’ll want to include someone and shift in a different way to get everyone else to accept target.
Me shift –> group shift –> conversation opening –> target enters conversation. So indirectly, I influenced the group to bring about a new topic or letting the newcomer add on to the topic, giving him control to steer the conversation as he sees fit.
As it was said before on these forums, it’s not about the tools, it’s what you do with the tools.
Good points everybody, you’ve given me alot to think about. I studied psych in college (among other things), read alot about psychology and I’ve read some about hypnosis and NLP (I’ve done quite a bit of autohypnosis/meditation/trancing- great way to unwind), but it’s a totally different thing to actually go out and become aware of subconscious influence on other people. I’m not use to it and it is freaky indeed if you’ve just gone through the looking glass.
I guess in reality it’s not very different than the techniques a high pressure salesman uses. You feel good about being around that kind of influence- they want you to feel really chummy and they give off cues like they are the authority. They really work you over, if you are looking at cars they even take you inside and start filling out paperwork just to make it seem the purchase is inevitable (I’ve looked at enough cars and bikes to know how it goes). But in the end, if you can see through it all… it doesn’t change your mind. Actually, high pressure tactics are a bit of a tun-off to me, but I guess they work on alot of people. (maybe the same is true of pheros- some people react differently than others?)
So, another question… do pheromones, like hypnosis or “thought reform” work better on “weak willed” people? People that aren’t as in-tune with influence and are more trusting? Have you encountered any people that realized that “hey, something’s up- this is wierd”?
Worked on me. I’m not willing to sell someone something they don’t really want or need. And naively just felt that the salesman would be nice to me. What a doof I was. Anyways, I go there, end up just taking the sticker price. At least they were nice enough there? Then they screwed me with a shitty loan and I ended up paying like 3 times the amount of the loan. Luckily it was relatively small.
In that situation though, I could have been more proactive and aggressive. Now I know, and next time, if I even buy from a dealership again, will be at a much better price.
I was in a certain mindset and therefore in a way, was willingly receptive to his persuasion.
I don’t know, I consider myself a ‘trusting’ person, and often go with my gut feeling. Some how, this results in me meeting lots of cool guys, but also lots of “nice” guys. I guess I just know they’re harmless, and so can trust them? I have no clue right now. Anyways, point is, I don’t think people are ‘weak’ persay, but rather, some might go more with the flow of how they feel. I know that’s the type of person I am. If I feel attraction to a girl, I don’t really think about, why? Oh, she’s asian, and she’s got a nice ass, etc..I just kinda go with it. Ride the vibe of the situation if you will.
I suspect some girls are that way too. Others are not. Some of the more blatant hits are girls just jumping into my arms, or my lap, or otherwise hanging on to me. Sometimes complete strangers, sometimes girls that I sort of know. Almost always a complete surprise though.
Other girls respond to attraction for a bit, but at a certain level, it’s too much and they back off because they are confused? Or they have reservations? Neither behavior implies strength of will but simply ‘mindset’.
Strength of will might be better reserved for drug addiction withdrawals.
I don’t even trust my feelings half the time. I have an analytical, cautious mind. When I feel something is too good to be true, I get a sick, surreal feeling that starts in my head and definitely doesn’t begin life as an emotion. I’ve had this feeling alot dealing with high pressure salesman, and also high doses of pheros. It’s not so much a feeling as a little voice in my head reminding me of what is really happening. I think alot of people don’t have this, or the volume is turned way down. When I do major purchases… I was going along with the game until this little voice told me “wait, slow down… come back another time”
Well, I needed to get around, would have rather gotten the car in the color and options I was looking for than to haggle about prices and ask my friends to drive me all over these different dealerships. So I just sighed, bowed my head and took the bait. In retrospect, if I had gotten my act together a little sooner, that pressure wouldn’t have been there, so I probably would have taken my time and haggled a bit more.
Yeah, peoples priorities differ. You know what I found helped is “negs” to the dealers- and I haven’t even read “The Game” or any of the PUA stuff at all. Tell them “I already have a garage full of these things” or “You know, I saw one like that across town and it was $500 dollars cheaper”. Act like you can leave, and their tune changes alot, they will negotiate. If you can’t leave, they have you.
I’d just like to update this thread. After much experimentation with pheromones in casual social settings, I’ve come to some conclusions and actually feel fairly experienced now, but always have more to learn. I came to pheromones years ago due to sheer curiosity, and was initially perplexed- the stuff smelled vaguely musky and urinous, and I wasn’t sure what they did- people were not treating me that much different than before, or so I thought. Women didn’t seem to be asking me for phone numbers, or even really taking that much apparrent notice of me (but then, I was hardly looking, wasn’t I?). Only recently did I try some Androtics products and find out about message boards.
I’m convinced they aren’t “that” big a deal. They make you smell attractive, that’s all. Sounds a bit simplistic, but that’s what they do. Maybe some suggest certain things more than others, but in the end you are putting on “human funk”. I don’t believe they give you special mind control powers, and anybody who says otherwise is just lying to you- yet I think alot of novices are expecting that. If anything a pheromone will change you more, than it does other people ,becaues you are wearing the pheromones after all. It is indeed a much more subtle effect and like the Red Pill in the Matrix, you have to take them to find out, and go down the Rabbit Hole with an open mind and clear vision with no expectations.
I think alot of novices will be shocked by what pheromones don’t do, and that’s why alot will be disappointed.
BTW, got an interesting effect wearing androsterone to sleep at night with a touch of instant openness, a wierd effect. I felt like a kid with a favorite teddy bear, you know, one that’s bee held forever and stinks a bit, but you love it anyways and it keeps you cozy. Or like there was somebody else in the bed with me, comforting me. Or sitting on my grandfather’s lap. The experience was human in a way that I have rarely felt in my life, in a long, long time.
Maybe it’s the smell of being human that we flush down the drain every morning or so in the name of civilization. If you approach pheromones from that perspective as a novice, the idea that you are connecting with a primal part of your humanity that we’ve all been ignoring for so long, I think doors will open for you and you’ll start noticing other things. It can be a growing experience. If you are looking for “mind control” or to seduce women because you are secretly an odious sleazebag with no life, you are missing the big picture.
Dammit. I don’t know what I was thinking trying to write a quick response in my rep, but whatever I’ll just articulate it.
Yes, in a way, pheromones let us experience humanity on a level that we cannot really experience it today. However, even still, it isn’t the same sort of experience as say, when people actually didn’t bathe. Not to mention, these are concentrated, specific pheromones. Not just a culmination of our own personal secretions.
I find it more humanizing in the sense that it draws out emotions. I’ve always seen emotional expression as being ‘human’. But of course, for the sake of society, we learn to repress or at least, to not express certain emotions. In a sense, society is ‘dehumanizing’.
Modern society, anyways. Just remember that for about 1,000 years or so, Western civilization was known for… never bathing. It wasn’t until about the 19th century that most people started regularly bathing.
Anybody want to joint me in the “No Bathing League”?
