Perhaps the reason that some people react negatively to large amounts of pheromones on another individual is a natural response to uncleanliness.
Perhaps in nature that the only way a pheromone could be perceived as strong in an overdose -is if the person wearing it is particularly unclean or even “pissed themself”. This could explain the negative or neutral reactions that some people get. As someone unclean should not be perceived as a good mate.
Hypothesis #2:
Perhaps there is yet another bodily pheromone which is being overpowered by the applied pheromone. This would also explain why Androstenone applied to maniquins does little to affect people’s perceptions of the maniquin. Perhaps this pheromone is known or unknown -but is a necessary element for any pheromone to be percieved as “attractive”.
I think myself it has a lot to do with balance. A little bit of Androstenone (buffered by friendlier pheromones) may be OK for many people, for example, but too much and you can give the vibe of an annoying, threatening guy. If it was a hygiene issue then complex mixes where you would put on a number of sprays (and multiple 100s of mcgs) of pheromones would be seen as unclean, but they often work (as long as you don’t have too many ‘friendly’ or ‘dark’ mones upsetting the balance one way or the other).
Any more theories in addition of that two and the “normal and accepted” ones here? (“Brain-unconsciously-disconnecting-from-your-vibe-because-of-very-high-stimulation” and “high -none upsets people simply because of that phero effect on them”).?
Come on, I am sure you all have own theories about all this phero-world, lets share, it’s interesting
First, the ability to perceive (consciously) pheromones varies a lot.
I think in general women can pick up on them better than guys can. I also think in general women are more tolerant of bodily smells than men are. I’ve had a guy in a crowd scream out agressively “What’s that smell?!” before he could even see me. I’ve never had a reaction like that from a female.
I can change a diaper as well as the ladies I know. However, I will usually be gagging as I do it, whereas they will not. I think some other males may have similar reactions. I wonder if this effect is related to a generally greater tolerance for bodily odors by women.
The “smells like sh!t” theory of OD may be valid at least for the perceptions of certain individuals. This has come up on the forum before, with that response from both males and females. Females tend to be shyer about telling someone about it however.
This whole effect maybe related to our cultural standards of cleanliness. In today’s world a person may rarely encounter some of these compounds in any significant strength except when around excretia. Thus some of the fundamental biological communication mechanisms may be competing with a learned association between pheromones and dirty restrooms.
Sorry-go-round*. *Perhaps part of the OD phenomenon is expecting an OD phenomenon – which causes us to act in ways consistent with our expectations of what happens in an OD situation.
Rara avis*. The “rare bird”* phenomenon could also be operating: “Look at that guy giving off the weird vibe” (OD level of pheromones) in which people just stare at the source. Surprise, here’s someone with an unusual level of pheromones, and people notice, stop, and gawk.
Spotlight*. The high level of pheromones* puts everyone’s attention (or just the attention of someone special) on ~you~. Jealousy, and / or envy operate to generate competition. I want the attention, and so I get crabby – or gracious – or exotic – or whatever I think will compete well with ~you~. Your most basic social theory / territorial defense explanation.
Can’t help myself*. Wearing 500+ mcgs (or 1000+ mcgs) of pheros *I’ve had reactions that are best profiled as “the devil made me do it”: for example, being kissed goodnight by someone leaving a club that I hadn’t met before. At other times, I’ve noticed a “WTF? Why the hell am I attracted to ~him~?!?” reaction of self-doubt and bewilderment. Or more positively, “He’s different. I’ve never been attracted to someone like that; what do I do now?” When we provoke unexpected thoughts, feelings, and emotions in people, they might get upset or angry with us. Not everyone has an appetite for change or novelty.
Totally agree, very plausible theories, I’ve suffered spotlight jealousy effects, specially from friends and they make afwul jokes or try to get me down from the high. I’ve noticed this specially when high on -Androsterone.
The can’t help myself explanation is very true, not only with ODs too, in many ways girls with a boyfriend get upset and are edgy with the subjects in order to raise their auto-defense because they concious or unconciously don’t want to feel that attraction. This could be specially true if they are attracted to a lower-value boy, she might think she should not be attracted because she deserves more or something like that.
Going back to other theories that say there are no ODses really, what about the clearly agressiveness from alpha males to a subject with high -None? Just the effects of the phero, really, but it is a clear symptom of an OD. IMO -none OD is very real and clear . But as MarkL states high doses can be very effective (at least sexually).
Anyway, ODses are very context and self-attitude sensitive, so, maybe all ODses can be avoided with the appropiate attitude?
MarkL, what pheros have you used at so high doses (500+mcgs)? It would be nice to hear some experiences from that.
I have found that pheromones work better for me ever since I started using an all natural deodorant, one that allows some on my own pheromones to blend with whatever I am wearing.
Pre-script: I’m skipping over all of the basic “yeah, I got a hit” stuff. The only proof you will ever get is from experimenting.
I think there are many people whose first response to artificial pheromones is … unguarded.
Remember, I’m quite a bit older than many of the experimenters on this forum, so consider what I’m saying in that context.
When a women in her 20’s or early 30’s smells something that’s “All right!” she can sometimes be surprised and in that surprise, a window opens. She just responds, apparently without a lot of noticing of my chronological age. I’ve got my “minimal working signature” of pheros for day-to-day. So perhaps I just have the right odors and pheros kicking to be able to capture her unguarded attention. (BTW, the same can apply to a man, with some minor differences.)
But the following day/night/week, she’s thought about it. And she’s prepared to not be so unguarded. Perhaps she’s doing a little or a lot of shit testing, perhaps she’s just looking for consistency, or she’s wary of her initial response. I can see from our interactions that she’s still responding to pheromones, but she’s actively controlling her response.
But the next time (or fourth or fifth, or whatever) we meet, I switch from one drop of A314 and a spray of Spaceland, to a drop of A314 and ten sprays of Spaceland.
And then I feel like I can almost write the inner script she’s following verbatim: “WTF?” “I know, … I just don’t know.” “It’s like the first time I met him.” … and the end of the script is one of two things:
(unfavorable) It’s creepy/scary and I’m going to keep an eye on him (me)
(favorable) Screw controlling my reactions, I’m just going to enjoy this.
By my current count, it’s 35-13 favorable response for the occasional megadose of alphanol, alpha/beta mix, or AndrostAnone+AndrostERone mix. (*Will come back to EST/Androstadienone later.)
So, it seems like a way to “push through” and get a decision to be open (or not open) to further interaction. I often get comments from guys my age curious about how it is that I get quality responses and attention from the ladies (and boys) ~they~ would like to hit on. (For the still doubtful, I think that’s the objective evidence validating that pheros do work: “What’s he got that I ain’t got?” from someone who cannot have a bias, because he doesn’t even know I’m using pheros.)
All of the above refers to using a megadose with someone who’s already accustomed to me and my usual phero-mix.
The responses from people who are meeting phero-soaked me for the first time are all over the map. I ~rarely~ get a negative vibe at all using any of the above megadoses; I get hilarity, quiet friendliness, stares and come-hither looks, hugs … and a lot of “notice my boobs” gestures. (Must be something in my posture that triggers that. )
Yes, all a little sharper and more pronounced, on average, than when I’m just wearing my minimal social mix. But there’s still more than half of people who have no rxn at all.
All right. Glad to help, if my experience can be generalized. If anyone decides to try any of these megadose “events” out, I’ll be glad to hear your outcomes.
EST and Androstadienone.
These are both pretty straightforward alone. 500 mcg of EST is probably a dose 50x of what’s needed to produce an effect, I suspect. I’ve even seen suggestions that NANOdoses of EST are effective (less than 1.0 mcg).
500 mu EST – hetero guys are mostly VERY mellow, some look at you a little funny, not quite a WTF? reaction, more of a “Hmm” and taking it in stride; hetero women are cool/indifferent; homogirls are curious and very friendly; homoguys have no discernable reaction.
500 mu Androstadienone – hetero guys are a little cranky, and it’s revealing to see how they communicate this (you can learn a lot about your male friends with a big dose of Androstadienone); women of both persuasions are warm and “happy to see you, you’re just what I needed” (but it seems to put them into an internal “me” focus); and homoguys have a gamut of reactions from “that’s interesting” to “OMG, it’s Madge* as a man”. Some Instant Shine and 10 mcg of Androstenone buffs this up with some fun and perhaps adds a bit of sexual drama, and seems to help pull women out of the internal focus.
500 mu EST + 500 mu Androstadienone + 3-5 sprays IS + 10 mcg Androstenone + 10 mcg Androsterone + 10 mcg Androstanone.
Still exploring this, responses are pretty much all over the map AFAIK. This gets ~some~ noticeable response from just about 95% of the world I travel in – servers and patrons in restaurants, bartenders and patrons in bars, folks in dance clubs, my “all lifestyles” circus bar, the gay disco, the straight disco … I can identify only two negative responses, and perhaps they were not responses to the pheros but just coincidence – from pure strangers, both times, females late 20’s - early 30’s who were DHV.
(Again, a reminder that as an official greybeard, I may be producing responses that a lad in his 20’s won’t get or would get much differently – people may just be F-ing surprised that a geezer has such a “big” pherosig.)
Here are some of the comments / responses I’ve heard:
“He can’t figure out whether he’s straight or he’s gay” – 25-30m in gay disco (Hah!)
“Are you really married? You seem more like a swinger. What does your wife think?” – 28-32f in dance club
“Heya, Papi” – 45-55m Latino in circus bar
“Heya, Papi” – 22-25f Latina in circus bar
“Can I sleep with you tonight? Just sleep?” – * 35-38f in local sports bar, head on my chest.
It would be tedious for you, and for me, to list all of the “bald” comments I’ve gotten.
Here’s a representative example, my very last interaction the last time out with this mix, I opened a young woman out with a transvestite boy; she’d (the girl, not the boy) done more than a bit of body sculpting – boobs were in the 40-JKL+ range, perhaps some collagen in the lips, cheekbones. I told her my wingman and I had a bet on her age, that one of us said she was 22 and the other 26. She countered that she wanted me to buy her a shot if she told, and I parried that “I never pay for information”, at which point she confessed to being 26. After some conversation, it seemed a reasonable conclusion that her body-concept was … pathological? well, scary, at least. (I think her plastic surgeon needs a spanking.) She then flirted with both of us at a distance for about an hour, and then approached and demurely inquired as to whether we might take her on a date ~together~. She was inquiring about a date that night (as all bars were closing), not at some time in the future.
And, for whatever reason, on a separate note, bartenders approve. After doing this particular megadose combo, four bartenders in different venues have put me on their “industry rate” list – 1/3 or 1/2 price on draft beer/cocktail orders (on drinks I buy for myself; if I order for someone else, I’m charged full price.) I don’t work in a bar, so …
Two bartenders at my “all lifestyles circus bar” now just make change and don’t take ~any~ payment from me: I “buy” (order) a tall stein of Guinness (retail $6), I lay an Andrew Jackson on the bar and they go to the register and come back with a ten, a five, and five singles. (BTW, I’m still leaving the price plus tip on the bar, but it’s kind of weird. Right?)Lor! Any help here? WTF? Do you have some barkeeper wisdom to apply to the “industry rate” and “change back” deals?
Oh … and this is weird: policemen I know find it necessary to touch me when wearing this particular megadose, specifically, to pat me on the shoulder, or on the back. I don’t think there’s anything more to that than “a pat on the back”, but I find it curious, and if anyone has a thought on the how or why of it, I’d be much obliged.
Please remember YMMV; and drive your pheros safely.
The EST dosage of 500 mcg with all the other mones including 500 mcg of A1 for one phero event (probably lasting a few hours) is not cheap.
Anyway it is interesting that you got different effects between heteros and homos (males and females) with it.
I would love to see you try these megadose experiments with some of the putatives going around. For example, separate P75, P83 and P93 500 mcg experiments would be interesting (though I suspect you would have to use plenty of ‘softeners’ for each of these like Alpha-Nol, TAA, P74, etc.).
A few nights ago I decide to stop in my favorite ‘all lifestyles circus’ bar on the way home from work. I pause outside and rustle through my rucksack … and all I find is EST (50mcg/spray) and TAF(50mcg/spray) and -Androsterone 15mcg. I skip the -Androsterone and apply EST 8x50=400 and TAF 2x50=100 and I decide as I enter to be fairly self-contained in the bar:
some quiet conversation with my barkeep buddy Chad
browse a newspaper/magazine
make some notes on a project
Nothing particularly goal-oriented; I’m passing time, waiting constructively. I’m not wandering around saying hello to people I know or introducing myself to strangers; the bar is a bit on the quiet side (pop<30) anyway. I’m observing people in the bar and make no secret of enjoying them as they do their thing; I’m not being reclusive or sending off ‘hermit signals’.
Except for trips to the bathroom or to get popcorn, I’m sitting in my own pherocloud next to the front service counter rather than leaving a trail. I’m quiet, sipping on a large stein of Bass Ale for an hour.
Then a four-set rocks in, two gay boys (Shaun, Brian) and two girls (Lisa, Jenya). Lisa is visiting from New York, and she decides I embody the best of Chicago. If you use a stopwatch, you can measure that over the next two hours the total time Lisa is ~not~ touching me is under one minute.
Ummm … no one that I know, not even the Kinsey scale 5.999 gay boys, would throw Lisa out of bed.
The kino is great; at one point she manages to brush both of her mamms across my cheek on the way to leaning over my lap to hug another boy, Dana, who joins late.
The housecleaning we do is mental; one after another critical topic is raised, inspected, sorted, dismissed: politics to religion to economy to social mores and anthropology.
She makes it a point to tell me twice about how a policeman stopped their group while she was skinny-dipping at the beach (after the park was closed) … and how she emerged, topless, and announced to the cop that if he was going to arrest her, he better know how to show her a good time with the handcuffs on.
The posse that arrived with her finally returns from the back bar (and pool tables) after about 90 minutes. They are in two modes – one is to rescue me (or Lisa) because Lisa is becoming progressively drunk, and the other, it seems, is to figure out why the hell she’s so engaged with me in the first place.
So Lisa tutors her friends on what they’ve been missing while they left her alone and too bad for them, it’s their loss. I observe that the front door to the place is only 35" wide, so please go easy on the ego inflating comments.
Now we evolve from Lisa-MarkL kino to a very fluid group hug. Brian gives me a shoulder rub that I’d have paid hard cash for, my toes curl; Shaun opens up and we’re all trading warm “open hand” touches – back, arms, chests/breasts, though Jenya is a bit more reserved. (I’ve not witnessed such a scene in this venue in three - odd years, let alone participated. Perhaps I’ve been visiting on the wrong days! This lasts for about two minutes, then spins away.)
The IOIs are thick .. it’s like a group flirting convention, and casual bystanders are now being sucked into the vortex.
In any case, I did not foresee that the EST/TAF combo would generate such a strong hit. And one that I did virtually no work for. EST, I thought, was a “comfortable for guys” vibe, but apparently there’s more to it.
Thanks Mark excellent feedback as usual! I really wish more people would do these kind of creative ‘pheromone event’ experiments instead of writing forum reports on the same dosages IS, IFM, TUTH etc for the 1 millionth time! I would love to hear more experiments of megadosing putative pheromones…
It is interesting that the ‘megadose’ EST/TAF combo had such a great effect for you. But it is not completely unexpected. Estratetraenol, does seem to affect women as well from those in the know (see the old posts pasted in below from tacitus and sigma). TAF is also known as a potent intensifier (see the oldtime posts pasted below from MHarris and tacitus). Now a megadose of the two would likely drive things insane given what has been said below about some of the reactions from EST and high-dose TAF (for example see tacitus’ identified ‘neurotic’ effect of too much TAF in his March 5, 2006 post).
The EST blathers versus the b-Androstenol blathers EST has resulted in a couple of downloads of highly unfiltered mental material.. without the deep revelatory mind flushing of b-Androstenol… EST can produce the state of high rapport, or perceived high rapport, that the blatherer can just go off saying anything and everything that comes to mind without fully checking in with the blatheree…(this is where your NLP Calibration Skills can come in mighty handy, pardner) this of course is higher tinctures of EST… for general purposes I would keep the dose restrained around 20 mu until you are sure you like what behaviors you are experiencing… and for goodness sake don’t use to much when you go to a warmed up bar scene unless you want to hear in glorious surround sound every thought, opinion, reflection, mental itch scratching, inner rumble, cliche, and platitude that person has been storing up in his or her head for just this occasion… I am coming to the idea that there should be therapeutic blather bars with special acoustics and psychologists floating around handing out canapes and wholesome advice while the blather-noviates take great whiffs of EST and disgorge their entire psyches for the room to behold…"
sigma (April 24, 2006):
"From what I can tell about EST, it seems to put everyone around you in high spirits - works great as a social pheromone. The effects seem similar to that of the effects of Androstadienone on women, though not as intimate or personal…more energetic, but “chilled”. One thing that I noticed today while wearing it, is that it creates a very ‘carefree’ mood on the people around you, as well as seeming to make people want to be around you. I grabbed a large table for myself and a friend at a starbucks on campus to finish up a paper for one of my classes, and before I knew it, I had 5-6 of my friends sitting at the table with us. One of the girls ended up skipping her class (lol).
The downside is I’ve had trouble getting my paper started..and feelings of being ‘carefree’ sometimes feel like feelings of ‘apathy’. The girl who hung back to study with me only now started seriously getting any studying…we spent the last two hours BS’ing around…and I, instead of finishing my paper, got side-tracked by this forum, and ended up posting this very entry. I could be just looking for something to attribute my end of the semester slump though.
Instant Honesty+EST gave me a bigger high than IS+EST. From what I can tell, EST seems to enhance the social benefits of both Instant Honesty and IS"
sigma (May 1, 2006):
"Aside from the uplifting effects that EST has, EST seems to facilitate communication and interaction with others. People just seem to genuinely enjoy being around you and talking to you, and you feel genuinely more open to those around you…its kind of a hard phenomenon to describe, but once they get in your general vicinity, its like they don’t want to leave. I also find myself speaking up more often in class, and striking up casual conversation with strangers.
At times it feels like EST actually enhances the effects of other pheromones, at least the effect that they have on me. I really can’t confirm that though. I used to wear 2 sprays, but 3 sprays has been more beneficial. One day I should go all out and wear 5 sprays just to see what really happens.
sigma (September 24, 2006):
“…Estratetraenol is a great social pheromones as well. It creates a sort of social magnetism, as well as creating an uplifted vibe. Some report that its effects are more biased towards men. I’ve noticed this to some degree, but it worked quite well overall for me…”
sexmix adventures
MHarris (January 8, 2006):
"…You honed in on the subtleties of TAF quickly! I don’t know if I’ve covered this publicly yet or not, but it’s actually a key ingredient added to many our products. It’s there in what may seem like small amounts, but it makes them burn a little brighter.
While large amounts of TAF are insane, even nanogram amounts in a phero dose can change a mix. It’s a highly active intensifer.
TAF is also an excellent modifier when you want to bring out the character of a single pheromone, or discover new nuances of one you supposedly know well…"
I have ! I have !
didn’t accomplish much outside of the norm… I think Jasmin has particularly strong responses to dopamine. Instead of being sexual, TAF makes me too intellectual, it is a “snap out of it” phero. Minute doses of TAF do improve other phero mixes… it’s the monosodium glutamate, what is that flavor additive I have in my kitchen ? Accent flavor enhancer, you put it in soup and gravy for a bigger meatier taste… TAF is like that."
tee hee hee…MEO-EST made me do it!
tacitus (March 5, 2006):
“…Hmmmmm… definitely an autonomic response… it might be a small dose as catalyst pheromone, like TAF works for me… add in a speck of it to another mix and you have attentiveness, engagement… too much and you feel neurotic.”
Let’s visit the Orgasmotron !
one simple observation… a high empathy/connectivity/rapport mix will let you so massivley dump in the hot male pheromones that you could never get away with…
My “acceptance mix” is now a combination of Alpha Androstenol, estratatraenol, P74, P86, and alpha-Androsterone
To which I may add in whatever ( TAF really shoots this business up another 3 notches BTW… I finally got the erotic power of TAF… dagnooshus boy… that’s liquid sin !)… one I have that aura of safety and connection in place, the heat can turn up to glowing orange hot…"
Let’s visit the Orgasmotron !
tacitus (January 14, 2007):
“…On the male sexuous side of the equation, I think this round was the justly praised P83, P91, P93 ramped up with TAF… I beleive these were 50 mu each… so the whole kit probably came in at around 400 mu altogether… which by my standards is a nice, middle of the road, managable dose…”
You have an amazing command of the thread history here on Pherotalk. I’m mostly blind to what happened before … November 2006.
Thanks for collecting the items on point, excellent work, brilliant integration … thanks for helping me learn.
I’m in your debt, sir. Please feel free to call upon my marker at some point.
BTW, when I feel “estranged” from this forum, it’s mostly because of the relentless repetition of the same old questions and pherostories. I take a week or two. Then I recover my senses and remember that I, too, was a noob, and I wanted to celebrate my “discoveries.”
And so, after almost a year, it’s humbling to realize that in some ways (e.g. EST + TAF) I am ~still~ a noob, traveling a path already reconnoitered and reported on. A good moment of personal learning.
)
