Are pheromones unethical?

Pheromone Science Pheromone Theory & Molecules
1

I’m not sure if this is the right forum for this, but I’m interested in hearing what others think: Assuming that pheromones do indeed influence human behavior, what delineates ethical and unethical use?

It’s somewhat of a grey area to me. On one hand, it’s not very nice to chemically induce someone to sleep with you if they normally wouldn’t do that. On the other hand, how is it ethically different from wearing an expensive suit, having plastic surgery, working out a lot, driving an expensive car or anything else that qualifies as “investment in appearance?” Arguably, all of those things increase one’s mating success. But then, so does getting someone drunk and slipping them a rohypnol, and I don’t think anyone would argue that that’s an ethical act.

Also, given what I know about physiology, it seems logical to assume that people excrete pheromones to greatly varying degrees and that some could be thought of as, “pheromone deficient.” Even if you believe it’s wrong to use a performance-enhancing substance or procedure–whether it be anabolic steroids, elective surgery, use of ritalin in college or pheromones–is it still wrong to use them if you’re correcting a deficiency?

In my opinion, there’s no easy answer to any of those questions. All I can say with conviction is that I think it’s unethical to use pheromones to persuade someone to do something that is clearly to their detriment or that they would normally be morally opposed to doing. For example, the girl I’m interested in would clearly not normally be open to sleeping with someone within the first few months of dating. Therefore, should I have an opportunity, I’d feel wrong about taking it.

On the other hand, if I was frequenting clubs and bars and interacting with women who are open to one night stands, then I probably wouldn’t feel wrong about anything that happened, even if they might not normally go home with me without pheromone use. (Although then again, how can you really ever tell what’s in someone else’s mind?)

Use of pheromones in business presents a similar quandry. Is it ethical to use them to persuade someone to make a decision they might not normally make that results in your own monetary gain? What if you were born ugly or have an irritating voice or are otherwise deficient, and need pheromones to be on equal footing with people who are naturally more attractive and charismatic?

Thoughts?

2

Here are my thoughts on your post:

  1. LOL

  2. HAHAHAHAHA

  3. You clearly have NO IDEA what you’re talking about. Do some more research on the subject.

  4. It dosen’t sound like you get laid much(several MONTHS to have sex is to much for anyone to wait, especially women) I suggest you buy some pheromones and develop some sort of swagger to help you remedy this problem.

How old are you?

3

Thanks for the intelligent and well thought out reply.

4

Hi Fetus Farm

I think you’re overestimating the power of pheromones. They won’t overcome someone’s free will. In fact, your analogy about an expensive suit, etc is pretty much spot on. They are a useful addition to putting your best foot forward, but just as a girl won’t just jump you because of your suit, nor will she jump you because you’re wearing pheromones.

All they do is provide some enhancement to the impression you create - but that won’t make anyone do something they don’t want to do…

5

Thanks for the reply. (No sarcasm this time.)

Oh, I agree. Nothing short of general anesthesia completely nullifies free will. But assuming there is an effect, that small boost could still be the difference between “yes” and “no.” Let’s fictitiously say that you need 100 “points” to get a certain woman to be willing to sleep with you. Let’s then assume that you have a base of 90 points based on your innate physical attractiveness and personality. Then let’s hypothesize that wearing a nice suit, applying the right pheromones or injecting her with an estrogen/testosterone cocktail or slipping her a sedative could potentially push you over 100. Which of those activities are ethically okay in your mind, and why? Keep in mind that she wouldn’t sleep with you without performing one of those actions, so regardless of how small the effect is, it’s still the deciding factor. Hypothetically.

I’m not passing judgment on anyone specifically, I’m just interested in stimulating thought and hearing what others think about this issue. It seems to be coming up more and more: anabolic steroids in both sports and in the general male population are growing more and more prevalent, ritalin is being used by college students to enhance memory and focus, etc. Clearly some of these actions have been rejected as unethical by our society (such as steroid use in pro sports.)

As a behavioral neurobiologist, it’s a topic that’s in my mind a lot. I have a few decent ideas for behavior, affect and cognition altering drugs that could potentially be used as performance enhancement. Whether I should go anywhere with those ideas is a different question that I’ll need to decide within the next year or so.

6

If we consider pheromones to be an enhancement the same way that a good haircut or a nice suit would be, then I don’t believe there is a problem. Going with your theory of a system of points, once again assume that your innate physical attractiveness and personality garners you 90 points. But this time no pheromones are involved. Instead, you recently took a course in public speaking, and you are acting more confident. You are a bit wittier, and you’ve been practicing reading body language so you can gauge how your target is responding you you. This may also give you those extra 10 points. Are you going to shy away because you don’t believe she would have slept with you before you took the course?

What about a haircut and a fresh shave and an expensive, sexy cologne? Would you argue that you shouldn’t take her (even though she wants it) because you don’t think she would sleep with you if you were unkempt and smelled of stale cigarettes?

I’m not stating that this makes it ethical or not. I want to know how pheromone use falls in regard to these other enhancements to your intrinsic qualities. Is it an enhancement in the same way they are, or is it something different?

7

Then shy people will most of the time fail with Pheromones since a person has to be active to make Pheromones work.

8

I’ve had this discussion with Tisha once about how pheromones don’t make people change what they would normally do. Whether this is true or not is for you to decide, but she said that it just makes people more turned on to someone that you would have normally thought you wouldn’t be with because of certain reasons.

Like if you were to spray on pheromones and a girl friend of yours who was somewhat attracted to you, but never acted on it because she didn’t see you as the type of guy for her would find chemistry within you two and decide that the one time you wore pheros she was going to ask you out to dinner. The pheros changed how she perceived you and made you more desirable, but they didn’t make her take off her panties. She still has a brain and even if a girl is really turned on to you she wont do away with her morals just because your wearing pheromones.

The one thing I would find unethical is the use of certain pheromones, mainly IFM or A1, around men who could potentially get depressed.

That and the possibility that being exposed to pheromones for so many years, even by someone else around you using it, could cause you to be unreceptive to natural pheromones in other people. Not saying this has happened or will ever happen, but I’ve always wondered if using your neurotransmitters too much could cause them to weaken, like with using antibiotics too much and it weakens the effects. Just a thought.

9

Yes, exactly.

The important thing is, though, there are pheromones that may give a shy person self-effects to help him/her socialize more easily. Specifically the androstenols (the pheros in instant openness, instant honesty, and come talk to me).

10

Any response to something such as a nice haircut is presumably classically conditioned. That is to say, it’s filtered through the cortex and is affected by any preconceived notion a person might have. For example, if they’ve had a bad experience with someone who has that hairstyle or if their dad wears that cologne, their response may not be positive. Those are extreme examples, but hopefully they serve to make my point that those things are based on perceptions we’ve developed during life.

While the mechanisms of pheromones aren’t completely understood, I’d say the evidence indicates that they have direct neuroendocrine effects. In my mind, this puts them more in the category of drugs than haircuts and cologne. So in that way, it’s a different type of enhancement.

11

That is a very interesting thought. There are two basic types of mechanisms by which body regulates itself. A negative feedback loop is a type of system that inhibits itself, where a positive feedback loop promotes itself. Most hormone therapies are examples of the first, i.e. the more exogenous hormone you apply, the less your body produces. Long-term memory formation and building hand-eye coordination are examples of the latter type, where the more you do something, the more of certain chemicals specific neurons release, enabling you to remember or perform an action more effectively.

I’d be really curious to know more about the neuroendocrine mechanisms of pheromones. Desensitization or shutdown of your own natural pheromone production would definitely not be a good thing. With certain types of drugs such as corticosteroids (prednosine etc.,) doses are staggered to avoid this. I suppose to be on the safe side one could stagger pheromone use, although that might send out confusing signals to people you’re exposed to on a daily basis.

12

If you mean take breaks from pheromones, then yes many of us do that so that the effects come back stronger the next time around instead of weakening.
And yes people do get confused, but not any more so then they do when I change from wearing IS/b to wearing MX274. It’s just going back and forth between signatures.

13

I don’t think it’s unethical at all. Pheromones is just like makeup or stylish clothes. You wear it to make yourself feel good and seem more attractive.

It doesn’t mess with other people’s will honey. Pretend someone doesn’t like you at all (hope not!) and you wear instant shine around them…there is a really high chance that he/she will still not like you, but they’ll be more respectful and civilized towards you.

Don’t worry :slight_smile: Pheros are like vitamins :smiley:

14

Visual enhancements, perceived by others, are backed by involuntary neurochemical responses, which have been conditioned, but that would mean that pheromones are not of a different type of enhancement. Your perceiving a chemical change in your brain when looking someone who usually doesn’t wear a suit but who is now, and your perceiving a chemical change in your brain when a different pheromone signature is being worn by another. It is a sense we all have, and we are enhancing that output, just as we enhance our visually perceived output when wearing a suit, or styling a new haircut. After all, attraction is not a conscious cognitive process, nor is any emotion, it is an unconscious process, and in our conscious state, we merely experience it. This has been proven by science, as it appears that, through evolution, we still maintain the biological function to choose our mates, based upon another’s immune system, perceived via pheromones. Unconscious process, yes, the sole motivating factor in choosing a potential lover, no. Our conscious mind determines how we will act on any level of attraction.

Now, as for the creation of an emotional response, via pheromones, to overcome an already conditioned emotional response, yes, it is possible, but only if that person chooses to consciously let go of the other conditions which continually create, and created, the initial emotion.

And, in regards to the creation of an emotion, which would not otherwise be present (ie, a persons conventional response, before forming any emotion for the person with the variable signature). They can not alter an existing system which is ingrained within your being, that is to say, an emotion incongruent to a system already in place, or nonexistent, would be disregarded either on the conscious or unconscious level. (a conscious disregard due to cognitive incongruity, might involve those feelings to be experienced, produced through pheromones, but then redirected to a congruent preference.)

Now, have I made myself clear, or should I rephrase, to avoid having it sound like rubbish? :roll_eyes:

Dominick

15

I don’t see a problem. Pheros are natural to humans, we’re just deliberately and consciously replacing what’s been washed off - pheromone replacement therapy!

Pheros INFLUENCE people’s behaviour, they don’t cause it. If woman in a club goes home with you, it’s not because you made her do something she wouldn’t normally do. Why did she spend all that time and money buying sexy clothes, grooming herself, etc? Because she wants sex, that’s why! She wants to be swept off her feet by a cool guy and have an exciting experience! It’s a common female fantasy. If the pheros get you more sex, that’s just because she’s choosing you and not some other guy. But she would hook up with someone, be sure of that.

Same thing in sales or job interviews. If a guy walks into a car dealership, he WANTS a car. The job interviewer WANTS to hire someone for the job. If you have the right car for that customer, if you’re the right guy for the job, then there’s nothing wrong with influencing their decision for your mutual benefit.

Pheros are just a tool. You can use a knife to cut your food, or you can use a knife to commit murder. The knife is an object, it is morally neutral. Only human actions and intentions can be ethical or unethical. As long as you are acting in a way which is beneficial to both of you, there’s no problem. If you are injuring someone else, or yourself, there’s a problem.

16

On “influencing behavior” vs. “causing behavior”:

Concepts like that are really difficult to nail down. The example with which I’m most familiar is the effect of testosterone on aggression. It’s typically thought that testosterone (whether of endogenous origin or used exogenously as in anabolic steroids) causes aggression. That’s not really true, exactly. Testosterone lowers the threshold for aggression in people or animals with an established pattern of aggressive behavior. If the person in question has no history of violent behavior, then it’s unlikely that testosterone will cause it. The neural circuits that facilitate that behavior need to be potentiated first.

Does that mean that if you slip an ex convict some testosterone without their knowledge and they commit a violent crime, you’re not responsible? Not in my opinion. Just because someone has done something doesn’t mean they would do it without the influence of the testosterone. So in that way, you could argue that the testosterone caused the behavior.

Again, I don’t know the neuroendocrine mechanisms by which any of these pheromones operate, but it would seem to be the same basic idea. You’re applying a chemical via an aerosol delivery mechanism that lowers the threshold for certain types of behavior.

Also, I’m inclined to agree that it’s a neutral tool. If you use pheromones to mediate world peace, for example, then obviously it’s not unethical. But it would seem to warrant a little more thought than putting on nice clothes, for example.

17

“For example, the girl I’m interested in would clearly not normally be open to sleeping with someone within the first few months of dating. Therefore, should I have an opportunity, I’d feel wrong about taking it”

LOL what is she afraid of her sexuality? Come on…

OK. This thread is basic speculation and the use of fancy words to a null point end. Noone here knows.

Furthermore, the chemical makeup of these synthetic pheromones have not been tested while people have been hooked up to machines measuring brain activity nor bio signs.

Therefore, the cause and/or effects are unknown as far as the mind is concerned.

Because of said speculation, the ethical vs. unethical effects are no different that a division of morality.

You stated:

“All I can say with conviction is that I think it’s unethical to use pheromones to persuade someone to do something that is clearly to their detriment or that they would normally be morally opposed to doing.”

-If said action that was being induced was to their detriment or they would be morally opposed to doing, they would not have done it in the first place. This is a stimuli, if they do not want to act, they will not act, or they will override the stimuli and change their actions accordingly, I’ve seen it.

Due to the fact that ethical vs. unethical is a morality topic, it has to do with the individual not the “phero user community”.

I have said this before and I will reiterate it yet again to let this topic rest for the new people who do not use the search function.

I believe you should do some testing before you start a thread of this magnitude, as these products change your perception of yourself as well as others about you, not make them give you their bank password, or hand you money from their wallet.

“This is not some magic F*uck me juice that is going to make her have sex with you, you have to work it a little” -djAndarial

18

Not all cultures treat sex the same way. She was raised by a traditional family in a culture where it’s not uncommon for girls to remain virgins into their 20’s and where it’s accepted that you wait before having sex. I’d hope you would agree that the classy thing to do is to respect that rather than try to push her into sex earlier just because I happen to feel like having sex.

No one knows, but we can still discuss it theoretically. One could argue that any matter of philosophy is always pointless, yet you can still get a doctorate in it. If you don’t like it, don’t participate. I apologize for the overly technical wording. I read journal articles and write/edit scientific papers all day, so it’s hard to get completely out of that mindset at times.

Hands off my thesis idea.

What?

I think I already covered this with my testosterone and aggression example. “Want to” is kind of nebulous. I “want to” make a rude comment about your profile photo, but I’m choosing not to do it, so therefore I also want to not do it. But the testosterone in my body is lowering the threshold for me to go ahead and do it anyway.

And therefore?

It’s an interesting topic that some people seem to be enjoying. I’m sorry if its existence bothers you.

I think this was covered in the “points” line of reasoning that I’m guessing you didn’t read.

19

“I’d hope you would agree that the classy thing to do is to respect that rather than try to push her into sex earlier just because I happen to feel like having sex.”

I will remind you that it was not until the 20th century that unwed mothers were less shunned as well as arranged marriages as well as marriages for couples under the age of 21 were more commonly accepted.

I will also remind you that in “The olden days” ladies were married off at the age of 15-18 and older than that they were considered old maids.

So do not go classical with me.

“Hands off my thesis idea.”

…I am already writing it with research to back it up.

"“Because of said speculation, the ethical vs. unethical effects are no different that a division of morality.”

Should be “than a division of morality”

If that is not clear enough, perhaps you should think upon a higher level.

“It’s an interesting topic that some people seem to be enjoying. I’m sorry if its existence bothers you.”

This topic has been covered extensively in prior threads, and become somewhat of a dead horse subject.

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by djandarial view post
"Due to the fact that ethical vs. unethical is a morality topic, it has to do with the individual not the “phero user community”.

And therefore?"

…Well… Because this is primarily a morality issue, it does not have a specific answer.

Had this thread been a poll rather than what I see as another crusade thread.

I say this based on your down current black shadow you paint for the use of phero’s and the analogies you employ to change the “Frame” of the use of these products..

As with your “Arguably, all of those things increase one’s mating success. But then, so does getting someone drunk and slipping them a rohypnol, and I don’t think anyone would argue that that’s an ethical act.”

Thoughts to answer your question which are one sided thoughts not questions would be:

Paragraph One: “what delineates ethical and unethical use?” Morality

Paragraph Two: No question Posed

Paragraph Three: “use of ritalin in college or pheromones–is it still wrong to use them if you’re correcting a deficiency?” Physicians can prescribe vitamin’s to supplement a “deficiency”, so no not wrong. "This is a morality issue as well, natural as “deity” made you, or as how normal is.

Paragraph Four: “Therefore, should I have an opportunity, I’d feel wrong about taking it.” Yet again, this is a morality question and subject to your own belief set and what your stance is on “right and wrong” we can not answer this for you.

Paragraph Five: " how can you really ever tell what’s in someone else’s mind?" You can not tell, thus the old adage, as hot for you as a preacher’s daughter. These are all based on morality issues and differ from person to person.

Paragraph Six:

Part one: “Is it ethical to use them to persuade someone to make a decision they might not normally make that results in your own monetary gain?”

“Persuasion is half of business, it’s called marketing and selling yourself, along with a power suit and an articulate voice as well as a golf game.” This is an ethics question, and would very from person to person

Part Two: “What if you were born ugly or have an irritating voice or are otherwise deficient, and need pheromones to be on equal footing with people who are naturally more attractive and charismatic?”

Would be up to the morality of said individual to make up their mind.

Is the flat chested woman going to get breast implants? Perhaps… Does she biologically need silicone implants to keep her heart beating? No, but that is morality… Is it Moral as opposed to Ethical or unethical, ethics are based on morals of public opinion as well as interpretations of for self.

-Dj

20

" I “want to” make a rude comment about your profile photo, but I’m choosing not to do it, so therefore I also want to not do it."

Awwww… I’m going to feel sad over something an anonymous person said on a forum, criticizing a picture of a guy in a suit…

Gosh… what ever shall I do with myself… Momma… Call Pa!