The Ethics of Pheromone Use

I posted this back on the Love Scent forum back in 2002 and I think it sparked some serious, productive discussion. What brought it to mind was a recent posting where a male of the age of majority (23) was planning to test out some andro pheromone mixtures. Well and good but he planned on going onto a high school campus and try them on cheerleaders, aka minor females.

As the father of a cheerleader, I don’t support this plan. Neither would law enforcement nor the courts.

There are few rules for pheromone use for us to follow so we’ll have to make them up as we go along. This is a first shot.

The Ethics of Pheromone Use

We buy pheromones, we use pheromones, we hope for results. Sometimes those results are an improvement of our own mood or self-esteem or self-confidence. But, frankly, most of us most of the time want to change other peoples' behavior. Where are the limits? Where are the pitfalls? Can pheromone usage be unethical?

Let's look at three intentions - sexual attraction, business performance, social ease, starting with the latter. This one is the most positive and least self-interested - we intend for others to be socially at ease around us and to let down some reserve that is common in our increasingly crowded societies. This is generally a win-win situation and I'd use pheromones without ethical hesitation.

Business - in sales, business seems willing to stoop to anything. Ideally, the buyer rationally chooses to buy or not based on their own needs and resources but in the real world, the charm and persistence of the salesman plays a big part. Walk through a mall and you're bombarded with all sorts of aromas - cinnamon, perfumes, etc. Caveat Emptor seems the rule of the world. Making an ethical argument AGAINST using pheromones in sales is blowing in the wind. I predict that Victoria's Secret stores will be wafting copulins over their female customers before long. Sometimes sales are win-win and sometimes it's zero-sum. I would draw the line at in-home sales - your pheromones can very well disrupt any children in the home negatively - they're innocent bystanders.

In the general business world - not direct sales - one is really selling oneself. If you're ambitious, you're probably working harder. But better packaging is a useful adjunct - nicer clothes, polished shoes, sophisticated cologne etc. That is generally agreed to be fair. On the other hand, using sex or the prospect of sex to advance oneself is clearly unethical and might just backfire. Still, a big advantage of pheromones is just in GETTING the attention of decision-makers.

The reason most of us are interested in pheromones is to improve our sex lives by upgrading the frequency, quality, and maybe quantity of sexual partners. Sex is also a marketplace of sorts, each individual seeking the best "deal" he or she can arrange. That's nature's way of getting the best genes into the next generation of homo sapiens - its worked so far, maybe too well.

So what's "best?" It's purely functional. If it works, its good. In that brutal evolutionary framework, exogenous pheromones are a triumph of the forebrain over the endocrine system. Just like make-up and push-up bras, important mental qualities of initiative and inventiveness are hidden behind the deceptions. Plus, success has its own smell so there is a positive feedback loop at play.

However, ethics is the defense of the good of the whole against the self-interest of the individual. So is using your smarts to be a better sexual competitor wrong? In the long run, it will make for a smarter species - the guy who knows the science will get the girl at the expense of the dumb side of beef that plays football (we hope.) Smarts will select over meat and that better prepares us (we think) for the new world of the 21st century.

There are limits - don't use pheromones to seduce underage girls, for example. I am a bit distressed when I see 14 year olds seeking advice on pheromone use. I doubt they are seeking just social advantage and harmony.

Another ethical problem is that pheromones work best when there they are not apparent to the intended audience. That means an element of deception, or at least concealment is involved. Again, that same deception is part of push-up bras, falsies, and silicone breast implants.

Is there a difference between arranging to get a foreign substance (your pheromones) into the nose of an unsuspecting target and slipping a roofie or 'lude into her drink? In the case of pheromones, no cases of loss of conscious thought or self-preservation has been recorded or are expected - the target retains full mental facilities but is somewhat stimulated but not out of control.

While the old saying "All's fair in love and war" may be a bit too broad, I'd conclude that pheromone use is well within ethical bounds except for the exclusions about. Maybe a better test would be, would you be upset if exogenous pheromones were used on you? I can't think of an example that I could legitimately say yes.

I'd welcome further discussions and other perspectives.

Don’t get your panties in a bunch. Mones ain’t gonna invalidate freewill or initiate mind control anymore than wearing makeup, tight designer jeans or driving cool wheels. Wish it weren’t so but otherwise you could spray mones on a stiff at a funeral and watch the grief stricken hump him themselves red 'n raw. Not. All mones do is accent your attributes and suggest. If she isn’t into you ain’t no amount of mones gonna change that. You can’t polish a turd no matter how hard you try.

Save the cheerleader and save the world. Your daughter is safe from evil mone laced 23 year men. Now if he has a nice car, cut body and cool threads, watch out…

Whitehall … I’m afraid you’ve missed my point.

Resurrecting a dead thread to vent about something that is obviously a sore spot with you, with a liberal dose of your size 12 and glock practice in different posts wreaks of fear more than wanting to participate in and/or learn from this forum. Let’s see, a guy with a size 12 shoe, with a carry permit (hopefully) who is protective of his daughter makes you one OF a million. The forum is what it is … a place to discuss the use of product sold by a particular company and the use of pheromones in general.

Please don’t think for a second I didn’t take your initial post seriously. The fact is I took your tone VERY seriously. IF - as you stated in your original thread - you are a longtime user from as far back as ‘02, one might presume that you have a decent level of experience with the use of various products. Taking a giant leap and assuming that is correct, you would know with certainty that pheromones can in NO WAY be compared to date rape drugs which have direct, debilitating physical effects as in ‘knocked out cold and unfunctional’. To make the comparison is just disingenuous at its best and provocative to the extreme.

To think or intimate that any pheromone product is basically some ‘witches brew’ removing not only free will from the mix of human interaction but destroys ethical imprints from upbringing of a teenage cheerleader is just bollocks. To think so would indicate that a few sprays of IFM on a blowup doll would result in a male hump frenzy. (OK, maybe that wasn’t such a great choice ‘cause that may be entirely plausible) … my point is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN with a fully functioning human being.

So … what are we really dealing with here ? Do you have the right or even responsibility to protect your 16 yo ? Of Course. I can’t imagine anyone who is a member here even thinking otherwise much less saying so. That pretty much leaves a protective father (rightly so) who is maybe over reacting a little.

The kid whose post you originally replied to is the same guy who’s going to hit on high school kids with or without pheromones. The simple fact of the matter is that teenagers - in particular - think about fuckin … they think about it a LOT. Remember ? Personally, I think you do.

Understand, I don’t speak for the forum or Androtics … only myself but I would suggest that maybe you should rely on the ethics you’ve instilled in your daughter already and reinforce those from time to time. Should she become sexually active, before you blow a gasket and wanna break out the glock remember that her partner was only 50% of that equation. There is no product sold / used / reported on here that will ‘cause’ wild uninhibited monkey sex (no offense intended to monkeys). Sometimes, a pre-existing inclination between two people is enhanced by their use. You’re intelligent enough to ferret out the key word in that thought.

off the high horse, man. Free will is still involved.
I do give you props for being an attentive father.

Minor children (as in high school girls) are not legally considered to fully possess free will. The legal age of marriage and consent has move higher over the years and for good reason. Heck, mature women are going to jail for bonking underage guys! (And yes, males and females are different and need different rules.)

I would like to describe the scenario as viewed by responsible adults or as described by the press or an ambitious politician (not the same things!).

Adult male exposes underage, minor females to exogenous steroid compounds with an intent on insemination. The steroid compounds are delivered in the air, without the victims’ knowledge or consent. Scientific evidence supports that such compounds can be sexually arousing and/or stimulating and a flourishing market exists on the Internet to develop and sell such compounds for sexual purposes.

Pheromone use on the underaged will be analogized to plying young girls with alcohol or worst, and considered especially evil since the girls neither know nor consent to the exposure.

Pheromones have tremendous powers that we’ve barely begun to understand and exploit. With power comes responsibility. A new power always creates a countervailing, restraining power. Here’s how in might work in our political system : Since most pheromones are steroids, a major scandal could easily inspire the DEA or Congress to classify them as Schedule I, just like LSD, heroin, or GHB. Just because behavioral changes occur at doses of nanograms rather than pints won’t let them escape charges of being drugs.

So far, the arguments presented on this thread and on the cheerleader thread are empty attempts to avoid the issue of the ethics of pheromone use. Use on the underaged for sexual purposes is the greatest political risk we face.

BTW - yesterday was my first self-exposure to P83. I’m usually a lot more diplomatic and measured so if I’m talking violence, pheromones do work.

Good goddess boys, its a discussion not a accusation so no need to go all harsh and defensive. No ones panties are bunching but yours. Whitehall is not a troll :roll_eyes:

I have been using mones for a long time and yes I agree there is a certain amount of ethics users should follow. This doesn’t mean that I am saying mones will negate freewill because they wont and Whitehall didn’t say that either.

I tend to influence new young members toward the social mones. I don’t believe for many reasons that they should use the heavier more sexual mones. For one… in the age range of 16 and under they dont work well and are a waste of money. Younger people have not developed the maturity or solid morals and ethics to be using them.

Mones can and will influence, There are plenty of stories here in this forum that indicate this. Here is just a tiny example…

I myself posted my experience at the mall with the weirdo who followed me and approached me in the mall garage.

How about the user who made his yoga teacher so discomforted he was asked never to return to class.

Both of those instances were not from our behavior directly but from the reaction to certain mones in the wrong instance and environment. However we did choose to wear them so where is the line drawn on the outcome. Who was responsible ?

Influence… any kind of influence, is a powerful thing. We should all consider the morality and ethics of what we are doing. This doesn’t mean we should not use mones or push up bra’s or we should be afraid of them. Just use them responsibly and that is Androtics stance on it as well. We always influence that and push toward making the world a better place not a dangerous place.

It is also a place to discuss our views about mone we use to effect others and the outcome of those effects. .

Read what he said again.

He is not comparing it to a drug he is saying it is not like them.

Think back to the member who posted he wanted to wear (I think it was TUTH) to a sex addicts meeting and how most of us reacted to that post. Ethics come into play with mone use whether its with sex addicts or with underage cheerleaders.

Its not the mones that are unethical its the users intended use of those mones. His or her influence and that is what whitewall is referring to. Not to the fact that just like a push up bra or make up or whatever we use to influence others can be used as a tool can be used to influence. But the fact that we should be responsible in how we use it and for what we influence.

Teenagers are very complex and impressionable, Yes many have a strong ethical backgrounds and are sure of themselves and there is just as many who can easily be influenced not by mones but by the irresponsible user of mones. Should a 20 year old guy be targeting a 15 year old girl with mones. Hell no, and I have stated this on the forum many times. Can he influence her with those mones. Possibly but in most cases such as this it would make the girl more uneasy then aroused. It would also take a bit more then just those mones to do that. I don’t think anyone is saying they are a witches brew but mones send signals and some of those signals younger people are not equipped to deal with just yet. Its our responsiblity to use them ethically. All of us are going to come in contact and possibly attract much to young individuals its inevitable but we are responsdible for the outcome as adults

I am distressed by this as well and have voiced it more then once. I believe I am ethical in my use of mones (wit the occasional fuck up LOL ) and I encourage the younger users to be as well. We all should. Adulthood comes fast enough and sticks around a long time. While teenagers will think about sex a lot I make them aware there is way more to mones then getting laid. I feel its part of my responsibility as a user and a mom. Androtics doesn’t sell to kids under 13 and I always felt they should jack that up to 16 myself but I dont make the rules.

My opinion…

Guns don’t kill they just make it easier to kill.

Mones don’t make people do what we want they just make it easier to influence them to do what we want.

In both cases its the user of the tool responsible for the ethics and outcome not the tool itself.

Tisha

People who wear sexual pheromones do not have to sleep with all, or even any of the recipients. Sexual pheromones do not cause instant sex or whatever.

If I wear Instant sexiness to charm the cute guys, so they will ask me out, it will also be sniffed up by the women, the ugly guys, the teenagers as a side effect. Maybe one of the latter gets turned on, but teens get turned on by grown women half the day. This does not mean women will be sleeping with teenage boys any more than they would sleep with the ugly guys who happen to sniff up some copulins or see a bit of leg.

Heck, wanting to appear sexy for the handsome guys does not even mean actual sex will happen. It just happens to be that men are more interested in getting to know a woman when they think she is sexy. They like a girl who is sweet and nice, but they will not notice her unless she is also a bit sexy.

Gegogi,

While you assert “pheromones ain’t gonna invalidate free will or initiate mind control”, how would you describe DIHL? In general, I agree but I think the boundaries are murky. Our concept of “free will” is being challenged by advances in pheromones and other neuroscience discoveries. Free will remains essential to Western thought, even if one has religous belief in predestination although my theology is weak on that discussion.

Butterfly’s points are well taken and I think clearly “fair” to all.

This thread reminds me of another one from earlier on this week when one guy was feeling sorry for himself because he had punched someone in the face whilst wearing 3 sprays of ammo. Pheromones don’t work like that. If you choose to punch someone or you’re prepared to sleep with someone underage then that was your choice. The only danger pheromones have is when people use them, behave unethically then refuse to take responsibility for what ever they did whilst blaming the pheromones.

I think it was David De Angelo that originally coined “Attraction isn’t a choice”. He was right. You can’t help feel attraction for certain people (with or without pheromones) so if someone gives you DIHL’s then they may not have had free will over feeling attraction for you but they have 100% choice to act upon that attraction. Even if I then pursue them (presuming I’m ethical about it off course) there choice and free will are still completely in tact.

From an ethical standpoint I would argue that pheromones themselves are neither inherently “good” nor “bad” they are simply neutral. A gun is neither good nor bad - it just is.

Similarly, I would argue that the use of pheromones is also neutral. There is nothing inherently bad about carrying a gun (although some people don’t like it).

The ethical question BEGINs at how the person wearing the pheromones (or carrying the gun) interacts with the world around them. If the person chooses to interact with children then the ethics of their use of pheromones is irrelevant - the act of trying to convince the child to have sex is what is wrong irregardless of whether pheromones, drugs, force of will or even just plain force is used.

The argument that pheromones make it easier is also irrelevant - Big muscles makes it easier as well.