just wondering, does anyone else have trouble using 'mones because they could be seen as a form of trickery?
i see 2 sides to this. on one hand, your exploiting the affected’s sences, and making them think (some may say forcing them) to like you, or at least, your trying to manipulate their sences to your advantage.
on the other hand, as long as they like you and your not surgically implanting something into their brain to make them feel good, who cares why they do? and 'mones arent much different than just being nice or cheering someone up to make them feel good.
One of my friends compared using sex pheromones to rape. I think that if somebody is going to sleep with you (or not) they are going to do it (or not do it) regardless of the pheromone. Phero’s seem to increase the odds. You can’t be a 1000 pound lepper with a hydrosyphalic head and put on some turn up the heat and girls will jump you.
So yeah, some people think its realy bad to use these products. Think of it like smoking in public. Smoker should be allowed to choose to smoke, but the second hand smoke affects the people around them. The non smokers choose to not smoke and think the smokers are infringing on their rights to not be around it.
As long as you are not adversley affecting people I don’t see a problem, which is why we should all be responsible phero users and consider others when making a mix. Try not to space out people that my be doing seriouse work for example.
Well, comparing it to rape would be going too far I think. One would be to have sex with a girl when she doesn’t want to, the other is to make her want it, which is what guys are doing with or without pheromones and probably what they should do.
I personally have no problem with women wearing pheromones, though that probably wouldn’t change much, because many guys wouldn’t probably have anything against girls raping them, either, but I think it that way - You like seeing attractive girls, you like interacting with them, a girl using pheromones wouldn’t really work against that agenda - a girl that wouldn’t be that attractive, would be damn attractive, I don’t think it differs that much from the female perspective. I do have problems with plastic surgery though.
I myself, have some problems using pheromones though, they feel a little like cheating. They are doing something for me that I would somewhat want to do myself. Like alcohole. Alcohole helps to get more chatty or into a higher emotional state and I don’t use alcohole in large doses at all, have never been drunk actually and for mostly that same reason. It’s like a shortcut and isn’t that good for me myself, because I think it does change something inside that matters, alcohole relates to viagra in my mind. You can’t achieve something and you use something to get it done, therefor alcohole makes me feel weaker then I am and pheromones have a similar feel.
I mostly use pheromones as enchancers. I don’t use them that much, but from the times I’ve used them thusfar, the experience has been tremendous, I know how I’d be acting if I were more communicative, socially active and more important, and I act more like that without wearing the pheromones.
If I act superior, then I feel superior and then I send pheromonal messages of being superior myself, without having to wear them. If that makes sense.
In My Opinion… this is a badly misinformed opinion, as a mater of fact, I think it is phenomenally:
ignorant
self righteous
does a terrible disservice to the authentic concept of “rape”
childishly shrill
I have NEVER… and I do mean NEVER… in my entire of more sex than your boneheaded friend will experience in 10 lifetimes IF he (or she) were to be exceedingly lucky… EVER… had pheromones produce an overt sexual resoponse in anyone who wasn’t already well attuned in that direction in the first place… believe it or not, sex IS an act of free will, not mental enslavement… also, believe it or not, sex is a LOT about respecting boundaries, and the people who seem to have the most sex, and the best sex are also greatly respectful of boundaries.. I use tons of pheromones (at the right time and place)… I do not ogle women, I don’t cop feels, I don’t look at them suggestively, I don’t turn the conversation to prurient subjects… which you might find surprising given my track record… people I know who DON’T respect boundaries also have one hell of a time getting laid I’ve noticed even though in their pathetic imaginations they think they are “putting it out there”… sex IS, first and foremost, a meeting of the minds… now pheromones might make having the conversation possible, and they might help you tune in that person to a greater degree than possible, but once you’re tuned in, YOU have to have the conversation, not the pheromones… because sex IS a conversation on many levels… how does you brilliant friend feel about alcohol…? Because alcohol is powerfully disinhibiting, it seems to be the prosexual drug of choice among most of the population, far above and beyond the use of pheromones… so then, is the use of alcohol also equivalent of rape ? Are guys who are powerful androgen secreters, such as a percentage of naturally intense adolescents, inherently “rapists” because they produce high levels of androstenone ? Well then, are young women who are naturally high level estrogen secreters female rapists of young guys ? I had, actually still have, a girlfriend who in her early twenties was a prodigious producer of some magical estrogenic skin secretions that drove men, including me, stark raving nuts around her, in a good way, and the sex was gooooooooooood… does your frined think people like that should be arrested ?
i doubt many guys wouldnt like a girl being somewhat aggressive about it, especially one they think they cute. but what if its honestly unwanted, the guy is outnumbered, bloodied…
I wonder about pheromones. I haven’t received mine yet, but they should show up soon.
I was kind of torn about it! What if I’m wearing Instant Sexiness and all these nizzasty guys try to come and talk to me? (In Alaska, in the town that I live in, there are like 4 men for every woman, so I have to deal with creepy guys a lot).
Then there’s the stupid “Rules” that I read back in college. You know, the books about how to land your perfect husband. They say that women can never chase, they must be pursued. So…“what if wearing pheromones or copulins attracts a man to me who would otherwise never look at me twice?” I don’t think that would happen because pheromones are only part of the overall picture.
And I think that the person who equated pheromones with rape was exaggerating. I think that perspective probably comes from someone who has a vague idea what pheromones are from the movies…like where a guy sprays something on and women become his slaves. That doesn’t happen in real life, as we all know.
Unfortunately, we live in a world that includes people who think there’s nothing wrong with using date rape drugs (including alcohol) or other unsavory means just to get sex. I don’t think that pheromones can be used in the same way. Not too long ago I treated a patient whose drink had been dosed with so much veterinary tranquilizer (Special K) that we had to medevac her out. Bad people in the world.
Pheromones will only work by accentuating existing attractions, they will not unreasonably make somoene attracted to you…they will not unreasonably make someone sleep with you. They may alter perception and mood, but they will not manipulate behavior. They can make you appear more attractive in a number of different ways, but they will not attract someone if there is no real viable reason for them to attracted to you.
To me pheromones are only a part of the overall reason why someone is attracted to you. Physical appearance, the way you carry yourself, your ability to ‘connect’ with somoene, and pheromones all work together to create an overall attractive image. Pheromones alone may help, but they WILL NOT be the only reason someone is into you.
When somoene is attracted to ME and chooses to be with ME while wearing synthetic pheromones, I never lose sight of the fact that she’s attracted to ME, and not the pheromones themselves. I know that if there was no conscious basis for her to be attracted to me (she finds me physically attractive, she’s attracted to my personality), the unconscious pheromone effects likely wouldn’t take root. Knowing all that, I’m able to look beyond the ethical issues that people might find with pheromone use.
Unfortunatetly, most people, without having tried pheromones for themselves, would not be able to realize the true nature of pheromones, without having tried them themselves…and yes most people who know about pheromones will believe they manipulate people’s behavior against their will. If people know you use pheromones and subscribe to the belief that pheromones manipulate behavior, the potential fall-out could be quite damaging…which is why I keep my pheromone use to myself. I wouldn’t want someone to start questioning why they’re attracted to me…or why they went as far as they did with me.
Tell your friend that phero’s are the equivalent of lipstick and mascara… they have about as much influence on humans.
Personally, I welcome the opportunity to level the playing field. Hey, if they can wear lipstick and mascara, I can wear a pleasant cologne.
Of course, I’m only speaking from experience with Athena’s product. Someday my Androtics order will be shipped.
Personally, I get three times as many IOIs just from consciously improving my posture and taking my time walking and talking. It’s hilarious to see every chick within eyesight (farther than pheros can reach) turn and give me a three second “up and down” look when I come around a corner with my corrected (80% of the time ) posture.
Animals are another story. I wish I could prevent their reactions. Imagine going to see your girlfriend’s horse and it runs across the field to you and presents for mating. How do you explain THAT to your girlfriend??
Lmfao quicksilver, I honestly don’t know how you wuld pass that one off to her. I’d be like…umm…I think he wants me to videotape you two together honey… rofl
About my friend! (This guy is realy great, I swear. He’d do anything to help me out of a jam and realy is a great friend. He’s just a little stuck up his own …)
He is an opiniative, self absorbed, person. He would probably tell us all that using pheromones is pathetic. There’s no point in trying to convey messages to him. He would want the leading professional in the field to tell him personaly that pheromones work first of all, and secondly jesus would have to stop by his house, convice him that he actualy exists then tell him that phero’s are ok to use. LOL
I personaly feel that pheromones are well within the range of ethics. It’s no worse than studying to be a PUA, which isn’t a bad thing.
Alcohol was made note of, and is definately far worse. Get a girl drunk and take her home eh? No, that’s just wrong IMO. Spray on some sexual pheromones and get an edge; great idea!
ROFL Quicksilver - I think you need to sit down and have a good long heart to heart with that horse! BTW, what’s the magic posture correction?
This is a tricky topic. The Androtics line I saw was that pheromones are just like wearing a good suit - makes you more presentable but doesn’t manipulate people. It’s maybe helpful to remember that pheromones are inter-personal chemical messengers - they tell people about you and what you’re thinking/feeling, but it’s up to that person how to respond. Unlike drugs, pheromones go in via the sensory organs and have to pass through the usual sensory processing in the brain before taking effect.
That said I think the distinction between persuasion (OK) and manipulation (not ok) is not a clear cut thing. You can use nothing more than speech to manipulate people in bad ways. The distinction I think one should make is whether you’re going to hurt the other person, and whether they’ll regret their actions later.
Thats’ a really key point I think. Not only does it have the same kind of level of influence, but it’s no more manipulative. Women wear lipstick and mascara to make themselves appear more attractive; is this not also a form of deception? I don’t think so - use of makeup, and use of pheromones, are just enhancements, to let you put your best foot forward.
Agreed - I’ve seen the same thing in myself. Stand up straight, push your shoulders back and hold your head right, and it’s amazing how the IOIs increase. More so than wearing expensive/cool clothes, more so that an expensive haircut, and a lot more than wearing pheromones!
I have actually been dealing with the same issues. I started out wearing pheromones with the intention of making MYSELF feel better and more open… but have slowly been playing the game.
I think in some ways it IS deception. And I think make-up is as well. I still wear it, and it’s not like people don’t know I’m not – but I look different without it. I guess it all comes down to how comfortable you are with and without it.
And I agree with Lollakas on I wished I could somehow get reactions on my own, without pheromone help. And I’m doing that now. From watching friends, other people, reading – it really is the attitude, your posture, and just the over all vibe you send out.
Aah… you say that now, but coming from someone who knows an actual situation where a guy was raped, it’s not all it’s cracked up to be.
There is actually quite a large percentage of women who have fantasies of being raped (I mean, look at all those smutty romance novels) but the realities are FAR different.
I get a little antsy when our society begins to take liberties with the concept of “rape” , when any sex act that is not 100% symmetrical is defined as rape… you mean you know a guy who was forced to have sex against his will with a woman (or was it a man ?) under the threat of death or grave bodily harm ? Here in NYC we actually DO get reports of gay man-on-man rape… and these often include some form of drugging, like one party telling another party that the drug in question is a mild relaxant or extasy when in fact it is a major tranquilizer… gay friends of mine who like to party tell me they must be very careful about what they will accept, how hard it is to trust people you think you know, and how much deceptive drugging takes place on the party scene… but, hey, a thousand years ago when I was young and naive a girl gave me a quaalude and walked me off to a bedroom… and it wasn’t a problem, because it was ok with me from the beginning… now if someone had given me a quaalude and incapacitated me and went somewhere I wasn’t looking to go that was inconsistent with my self image… I’d be massively furious… I’ve also know some gay guys with a load of stored up rage towards older guys who presented themselves as “elder buddy” types, and plied them with lots of drugs, had sorta consensual sex, then the younger guys wised up over time and realized that they had been taken advantage of, gradually, their innocence and their naive optimism and good will had been taken advantage of, and this left them with some deep scars, but was it rape ?, or just fucked up selfishness ?, or mentally reducing another person to an object ???.. there’s levels and degrees to this …
Or maybe they just want some passion and intensity and these dumb stories suggest that in a way…
I think of pheros as a form of speech, and I am in favor of free speech.
Whether your form your words the old-fashioned way, or if you put words into your own mouth (Pheros from a bottle) your speech is a constructed, intentional act; you’re as responsible for your phero-speech as for any other act, but no more.
If you DO find that someone responds to your pheros as if they are a slave, then you have an obligation to ensure informed consent … respecting boundaries … as tacitus suggested.
Would you take sexual advantage of a mentally disabled person?
I guess I’d have to define rape as sex WITHOUT consent. Not necessarily brute force, being tied up, and other things like that - but literally not being able to say yes.
His situation was somewhat like the one you had – a girl helped him to his room, and he was unable to really move or speak. He was absolutely livid the next day. Not saying it was okay for him to drink that much and take whatever he did, but the girl definitely took advantage of him.
As for the whole rape fantasy thing, I know women certainly want passion and intensity – but the fantasies are literally of being raped.
And that’s all I’ll say to that, since it’s horribly off topic… sorry for anyone really wanting to read about pheromones and ethics… although it is an ethical issue.
I certainly don’t believe that pheromones and sex automatically equals rape.
Improving yourself and taking action to make yourself more available and presentable is better than taking any phero. I don’t have much experience with pheromones so correct me if needed or feel free to add on or subtract. From my view, you should be able to come terms with yourself about your problems and improve on these qualities. If it is a matter of posture then take an amount of effort to correct this. If it is about you being social, then make an effort to talk to new people and chit chat. Whatever the problem might be, there is, in most situations, a very simple solution. You simply need to be willing to put that extra effort forward. If you don’t feel like exerting yourself to improve yourself, then it apparently isn’t that big of a deal to you.
Next, enter pheromones into the mix. Once you have put forward as much effort as you see fit, and have genuinely tried to improve yourself, then look to pheromones. I view pheromones as something to use for entertainment or for certain situations. Taking pheromones to draw more attention to yourself from the ladies, will not all of a sudden turn you into a stud with the ladies forever off of one use, nor do they make that claim. Thus they are a temporary enhancement to situations you might encounter during your day.
I don’t make this statement for all pheros because I can see where taking instant openness, for instance, can show you what it’s like to mingle and be more social. And in this case, it might be helpful. In the end. I guess it comes down to what you are willing to come to terms with in your own life. Are you using pheromones for the correct reasons? Are you trying to fix problems that need much more attention than covering them up with pheromones? Each person will answer differently, and each will have different solutions.
Human beings seem to distinguish ourselves on this planet by not just creating tools, but by ceaselessly creating extensions of our natural abilities.
Words and language are an artificial construct that extend our inborn capacity to communicate. The alphabet(s) and pictograms and other writing extends vocal language. As the typewriter did once, the keyboard computer, the internet and the software that structures this forum extends writing in dimensions and orders of magnitude that we can only suspect for now.
I suggest that any capability or resource can be used by any human both ethically and aesthetically; I haven’t yet, AFAIK, met anyone or anything that is “pure evil.” The opposite potential, to abuse capabilities or resources, is a given. Yet, however we may use the capabilities and resources that we find in life, each of us is responsible for our choices.
The phrase that you used – “correct reasons” – suggested to me that there is some absolute, independent “Truth” about what pheromones “Should” be used for. I don’t expect to find there is a universal set of correct reasons other than what fits each individual at a given time and in a given context.
As in other parts of life, I would expect the inherent ‘meaning’ of pheromones to be something created by each and every one of us, and not something to be sought after, or to be revealed to us if we study diligently or are lucky or receive divine favor.
Thank you for pointing this out Mark, I didn’t realize that I was coming off as that way. When I made the inference of “correct reasons,” I didn’t notice that I had that view until you made a point of it. I guess the point that I actually meant to make was along the lines of dependence and a false sense of a fixed problem that might still need attention. I just wouldn’t want anyone to have a problem that they thought was solved, when it might still need to be addressed further than by simply covering it up with pheromones. I hope that clears up what I was trying to say. It’s hard to put into words what I’m trying to say, without making it sound like I’m saying that everyone has the same issues and that everyone has to deal with the same things. That is not true, and I know that some people might have a reason to use a certain pheromone or other suppliment that others wouldn’t normally deal with. If there is anything further that needs to be pointed out, please do so. I have no problem with criticism and correctiveness as long as it is constructive and useful.
Hey, if they can wear lipstick and mascara, I can wear a pleasant cologne.
) posture.
Quicksilver