I agree. Man up and pay.
Sometimes whether or not something comes off as a DHV or a DLV is less a matter of WHAT you do, but HOW do you do it. You can pay for a woman without it coming off as a search for validation. In fact it probably looks worse if you don’t pay. You’re the man, you’re the provider…nuff said.
Food as an after-thought rather than the focal point… meet Sun at 4pm. later if things go well ‘hey, are you hungry?’
I agree 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000%
Food dates are so lame! I think the lovely women here need to get better dates. When I date a girl for the first time, it would never, ever be to the same old lame place every other guy takes her. Restaurants are for business meetings and picking out your children’s names. When I recommended to Toil some ideas, it would be his ideas so in that instance he would pay. I still always let my date know they are going to owe me BIG for what I have planned, but like PQ said it has to be framed correctly. It can’t be sexual at all, but has to come across as you are the coolest guy in the world (I am) and this is normal for you to be adventurous.
Also consider that whenever I do go out with a “date” for the first time it is never a date. It’s just somewhere I was planning to go and decided she would have fun coming along too. It’s usually pretty adventurous and fun and I try to make it so it doesn’t necessarily have to involve money. Again like PQ said shopping, especially spring window shopping, biking, hiking, fishing, stuff that no other guy has asked her to do leads to a much more valuable relationship. If I am thirsty and ask if she wants a drink of course I would pay.
I think anyone that says the man needs to pay on the first date is not dating the right people and are limiting themselves. It’s to bad so many would miss out on a great person, because they couldn’t get past their wallets. Sorry that to me is NOT a person I would ever feel comfortable dating.
Jp, you are certainly my kind of woman!
Guys, if you are going to invite ladies to dinner dates and you want to DHV, then you should grow a pair and make sure the check never gets to the table.
That’s right. Read that sentence again.
BEFORE the dinner, you should already have made arrangements for payment for the drinks, wine, meal, etc.
Earlier in the day, the headwaiter should have your credit card imprint and a $10 bill in his hot sweaty hand with your SASE … which is how he’s going to send you your credit card receipt. You should give him instructions on what percentage tip to add to the bill – I typically tell them to add 18% to the total BEFORE taxes. (I suggest you let him know that extraordinary service, above and beyond the call, will be tipped out separately, the following day, or the next time you visit his pleasure palace. The tenner is for him to ensure your bill is accurate and that the table server doesn’t screw up.)
If you’re going to do this a lot, cultivate relationships with a few maitre d’hote at places you like and can afford.
Then, there will be no problem when you want the restaurant to put the unique flower arrangement you ordered on the table, or if you want the maitre d’ to bring an orchid to the table for you to pin on your date’s lapel.
Nor will they balk when you have a small but extraordinary birthday cake delivered to the restaurant to be presented for dessert. Or a birthday present. (I once bought a pair of Waterford crystal snifters and had dessert – chocolate mousse – served in them; when the waiter told her the crystal was hers to take home, she cried.)
Screw the rules. You don’t spend money on a stranger to buy their attention – that is DLV. But being able to make connections and spend money in a creative way to delight someone you like is all DHV and nothing but DHV.
I don’t take strangers to dinner. I might go with them to IHOP after the bar closes for a cup of coffee and some pie – dutch – but I don’t take them to dinner.
And Jp, once I did let my date reach for her purse and go through the motions of getting the waiter, to ask for the bill, etc. She looked a little crestfallen when I didn’t object. When the waiter told her the dinner bill had already been paid, she looked a little bewildered … and then I told her I just wanted to see whether she’d actually go through will the paying for dinner charade.
She was very angry with me, but she forgave me. Several times. 
Jp, you are certainly my kind of woman!
Guys, if you are going to invite ladies to dinner dates and you want to DHV, then you should grow a pair and make sure the check never gets to the table.
That’s right. Read that sentence again.
BEFORE the dinner, you should already have made arrangements for payment for the drinks, wine, meal, etc.
Earlier in the day, the headwaiter should have your credit card imprint and a $10 bill in his hot sweaty hand with your SASE … which is how he’s going to send you your credit card receipt. You should give him instructions on what percentage tip to add to the bill – I typically tell them to add 18% to the total BEFORE taxes. (I suggest you let him know that extraordinary service, above and beyond the call, will be tipped out separately, the following day, or the next time you visit his pleasure palace. The tenner is for him to ensure your bill is accurate and that the table server doesn’t screw up.)
If you’re going to do this a lot, cultivate relationships with a few maitre d’hote at places you like and can afford.
Then, there will be no problem when you want the restaurant to put the unique flower arrangement you ordered on the table, or if you want the maitre d’ to bring an orchid to the table for you to pin on your date’s lapel.
Nor will they balk when you have a small but extraordinary birthday cake delivered to the restaurant to be presented for dessert. Or a birthday present. (I once bought a pair of Waterford crystal snifters and had dessert – chocolate mousse – served in them; when the waiter told her the crystal was hers to take home, she cried.)
Screw the rules. You don’t spend money on a stranger to buy their attention – that is DLV. But being able to make connections and spend money in a creative way to delight someone you like is all DHV and nothing but DHV.
I don’t take strangers to dinner. I might go with them to IHOP after the bar closes for a cup of coffee and some pie – dutch – but I don’t take them to dinner.
And Jp, once I did let my date reach for her purse and go through the motions of getting the waiter, to ask for the bill, etc. She looked a little crestfallen when I didn’t object. When the waiter told her the dinner bill had already been paid, she looked a little bewildered … and then I told her I just wanted to see whether she’d actually go through will the paying for dinner charade.
She was very angry with me, but she forgave me. Several times.
Oh, sad! 
Oh well, steevo; I guess we weren’t ever meant to be. sigh
xoxo
jp 
Ok ladies, let us step up and count up those of us who would be OK for paying on the first date.. Just so I can rest easier knowing that, alas, there’s a woman out there for steveo…
I’m just teasin’ ya..
HotMama,
i have asked a guy out before fully expecting to pay if i did the asking.
since i can pick’em, i have yet to pay for a date.
i just dont date often 
the day a guy asks me to pay is the day all my self-defense classes kick in.
he can pay for the date when he is able to get up from the floor
http://www.smilieshq.com/smilies/love0084.gif
just kidding.
Lor, what are you, my twin? We are always so much in agreement…it’s SCARY…
My thoughts have always been that whoever does the asking out pays for it. That is very fair, I think.
I love it…
MarkL, you can take me out anytime!!!
Seriously, very classy.
the whole time i read this, all i could think of is
“wow. what a guy would go through to do that for me. how special i would feel. how special i would think he was for actually giving it some thought.”
what his actual intention was in going through this would be totally irrelevant to me because really, what guy would give the time to think about this if he didnt really like me to some degree
this is in fact the kind of guy that if i knew he was dating other people,i would try harder
Cool post.
In Japan the bill is always taken care of by the host at the front of the restaurant (if it’s somewhere fancy). So if you are out with friends that live there you need to be quick to avoid an embarassing situation
To be honest with you, even if I did ask the guy, it would probably be a guy who WOULDN’T let me pay..
Or, otherwise, I probably wouldn’t have asked him in the first place
Yeah, I have had those too…but at least with them, since I asked them out, I was sincere in my offer that I didn’t mind paying for it…not many of them actually allowed me to though…
i have real trouble NOT paying…whether it’s a date or not. No matter who I’m with, it’s my natural instinct to pick up the tab.
I feel awkward when anyone pays for me…
As far as dating goes though.. I havbe to say if a guy sprung a surprise ride on me, i’d dig it.
A dinner date is pretty generic.
though I do really like sharing a meal with someone–
I’m more likely to cook for someone on a date
MarkL, so classy!! That’s pure James Bond!
I think that I jumped on Steveo’s line of thinking with both feet, which I did NOT intend to do. I am in complete agreement with him that a first date should not be a dinner date, unless there is some truly exceptional circumstance. But I don’t think a dinner has to be an interview nor a mundane feeding.
And BTW … if a woman invites me to dinner, I’ll ask her if she’s footing the bill if it’s not clear. And I will most certainly let her pay – I’m not even going to suggest I “pay the tip” – it’s a matter of respecting HER right to spend her money as she wishes as a full partner in our friendship. And depending on how the invitation is framed and offered, I can say there aren’t many things that I find more of an ego boost / sexy atmosphere – I never expect it, but it’s hot when it’s offered.
Yes, I learned the tactics I mentioned above back when it wasn’t a problem to spend a few hundred dollars for a dinner or for crystal goblets, or in hiring a limousine to pick my date up (without me … I’d be waiting for her at the venue; this truly builds enormous suspense and creates a very “supportive” atmosphere for romance.)
But the same strategy works with moderately priced restaurants. If you’re spending $40 – or $25 – apiece for cocktails and food, having a $15 flower arrangement created for you and delivered to your table has a powerful impact.
Ladies – tell us – do you ever think bad things about a guy who associates you with flowers?
Note: With florists I find I can usually work with the owner or one of the partners; I tell him I’m on a tight budget, but give him complete creative freedom: here’s $15, I know it’s not much, do what you can. And I make sure he knows the arrangement will be presented at the dinner table for two at a restaurant – that it will be a small in size but big in importance centerpiece for a romantic dinner. 19 times out of 20, the florist’s vanity (and business sense) results in him creating a $30+ arrangement for me – because he appreciates the challenge, the fun of doing his own thing, and knowing that many people will see his work, and that it might even generate some business for him.
Oh, BTW, from the movies you’d think a $10 bill hardly gets you a glance from the headwaiter. I once had a headwaiter sneer at my $10 bill … but I wasn’t asking for the owner’s table next to the bandstand (a scarce resource, really … he could wangle a hundred or more for a choice table at times.) I pointed out to him that I was paying him for three minutes of his time … one minute to check the bill, add the tip, and drop the receipt in the envelope, and two minutes to explain to the waiter how NOT to present the bill at the table, and why. Which ten dollars for three minutes, I pointed out, worked out to $200 per hour after tax, or $400 per hour pre tax … and I said if he made that much from his job, then he certainly didn’t need my ten and I’d be happy to take it back – I didn’t want to insult him. It took him less than 3 seconds to get my point, and do the math … I think all headwaiters are mathematicians at heart … and he graciously allowed that $10 for three minutes of his time was actually appropriate, and might even be generous.
Sharing a meal with someone you like is a naturally bonding human experience. Not having to hunt the food, build the fire, skin the catch, cook it … and clean up afterwards is a pure gift from the GODS. (I have a bias, I work in the food and beverage industry.) Making the experience distinctive is something you CAN do without spending a prince’s purse:There’s an acapella group that practices on Tuesday nights next door to one of my favorite restaurants. I bought one of their EP-CDs for $8 and promised to play it at work if they would sing one song at my table the following Tuesday. They agreed, the maitre d’ was cool – and they sang three cuts to three standing ovations from the patrons. At my table. The restaurant owner comped our after dinner drinks and has started a discussion with the group about performing there now and then.
My date was suitably impressed. (The total tab was only $62 plus tip, thanks to the free drinks.)
I will venture to say that A314 has helped me get even more better cooperation from florists and headwaiters and acapella singing group directors.
The scope of leverage you can apply to making a dinner something memorable and fun is only limited by your imagination.
MarkL - you’re the best! not for the money you spend, but the emotional intelligence you show.
exactly!