How do you react to the people who over-respond to your wacky pheromone mixes?

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

I cracked up reading Tommy Fever’s post Too Much Honesty, about the lady that wouldn’t stop talking. It’s hilarious, and if you haven’t read it go enjoy it now before this post gets too serious.

I kept thinking about that post though. I’ve had similar expereinces myself. One involved a long lost cousin who came over to visit the family. He brought his girlfriend and she was a “responder.” As soon as she got into my cloud she started talking and didn’t stop. I didn’t mind. When they left she noted how comfortable she had felt. However, afterwards several other people noted her nonstop talking behavior.

I think these chemicals work on deep parts of the brain, far below rational thought. We are essentially sending out “misinformation” on the chemical state of our bodies, and some people respond to their “misperceptions” in ways that may make us uncomfortable.

I wonder if the lady in Tommy’s post had some unprocessed data relating to her previous relationship, and was waiting for the appearance of a “good listener” to help her work through things. Tommy could have been sending out such artificial signals that identified him as that listener. To his credit, Tommy toughed it out and let her get out what she needed to say, without hurting her feelings. His discomfort, and our ability to imagine ourselves in his situation made the post comical.

My question is, what do we owe to those people who respond strongly to the chemicals we use? They interpret the chemical messages as coming from our bodies, when in fact they come from a bottle. The messages may be what we intend to communicate when we spray them on, but they may not be.

There is no right answer to this question. It depends on the individual’s morality. I am interested to hear what you all think though.

Think of the misinterpretations that are possible -

A guy thinks you are acting agressively when you’re not, and responds agressively. Is it ok to deck him or “put him in his place?”

A lady in whom you are not interested is facinated by you. How much consideration should be given to her feelings, and how do you weigh this against your time and the need to extricate yourself?

A person in a business deal exhibits a high degree of trust. Is it ok to sign a contract with him on the spot?

You can probably imagine, or perhaps have been entangled in, other similar situations. I certainly don’t know the “correct” answers to any of these questions, but they have been on my mind.

What are your thoughts?

[HotMama]

Frankly, my dear..

Hahaha

Just kidding!

EXCELLENT QUESTIONS!!!

I guess for myself, I would answer like this:

If I choose to wear Honesty, I better be prepared to listen. So in a way, I am prepared to be a better person..

A person my dog wants me to be..

I would feel guilty if I was a total fraud..

It’s a bit like acting for me. First, I get in the character, and then, the character becomes me..

If I send off an “sexually aggressive” vibe, I prolly put that stuff on purpose (from a bottle), and I better be prepared to deal with it. However, if some random guy decided that it would be cool to be an asshole, I’d have remove myself immediately from the situation.

[Lor]

we owe responders nothing.

to pose the question, we have to entertain the idea that they are victims of our manipulation, which i do not subscribe to.

Jaime Pressly once wore a shirt that said

Be Sexy.
It Doesnt Mean You Have To Have Sex.

am i manipulating when i wear make-up?

am i manipulating if someone digs my style or sarcasm?

<– heh heh heh

[Gegogi]

How do you react to the people who over-respond to your wacky pheromone mixes?

I immediately take advantage if them! Usually hit them up for money and a bottle of Ripple…

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

Wow! My thread title morphed. Was that you, Jasmin?

I titled this thread “What do we owe the responders?”

@HotMama

Frankly, my dear..

[Elevation]

@Gone_with_the_Wind

Wow! My thread title morphed. Was that you, Jasmin?

I titled this thread “What do we owe the responders?”

Heh, the same thing happened to the title of my thread on the newbie board. I feel better knowing I’m not the only one

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

@HotMama

I guess for myself, I would answer like this:

If I choose to wear Honesty, I better be prepared to listen. So in a way, I am prepared to be a better person..

Cool answer.

@Lor

we owe responders nothing.

to pose the question, we have to entertain the idea that they are victims of our manipulation, which i do not subscribe to.

Can’t say that I agree, since I did pose the question, and it wasn’t explicitly in terms of manipulation. We could get tangled in semantics though. Obviously human interactions could be called manipulation, since we affect each other. That’s a jaded way of looking at things though.

@Gegogi

I immediately take advantage if them! Usually hit them up for money and a bottle of Ripple…

Hmmmm… maybe next week I’ll try this on Skid Row!

@Elevation

Heh, the same thing happened to the title of my thread on the newbie board. I feel better knowing I’m not the only one

Elevation, you and I need to go to remedial thread titling class. (I hope we have to stay after school with Jasmin!)

[Lor]

im just curious-

why pose the question “what do we OWE” ? i mean, if the question wasnt in terms of manipulation, what was it in terms of?

i hate when im slow!

It depends on the individual’s morality. I am interested to hear what you all think though.

what are we doing to them if morals come into play???

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

@Lor

im just curious-

why pose the question “what do we OWE” ? i mean, if the question wasnt in terms of manipulation, what was it in terms of?

i hate when im slow!

what are we doing to them if morals come into play???

Great question, Lor! You’re not slow, you’re perceptive.

My most important debts are self-imposed. That’s why I tend to talk and write that way. I have a debt to my kids that goes over and beyond what any law would say I owe them. The debts I impose on myself depend on my morality.

I have a debt to people I communicate with. I have debts to people I love.

I have debts to the bank too, but to be honest they are much less important to me than some of my other self-imposed debts.

Some might use the word duty. Duties are not necessarrily just burdens. A duty can be a saving grace.

In the Confucian framework, in heirarchical relationships each party owes a debt (or duty) to the other. I’ve found it a valuable way to look at things.

[MarkL]

What (ethically) do we owe to any person who we interact with?

What (ethically) do we owe to the people who respond to our artificially enhanced pheromones?

What do we owe if their total response is an enjoyable 3 second moment of fantasy sex?

What do we owe if the response is:

• talking nonstop about things they normally keep secret
• wanting to celebrate and spending the rent money
• buying the wearer a drink
• nonverbal expressions of sexual desire
• voices that tell them to kill
• noticing the wearer and thinking “interesting”
• never raised from unconscious to awareness
• etc.
  The concept of duty owed is a way of formulating ethical decisions.

Ethical and aesthetic decisions are based on our appraisal of value: ethical value related to how “right” or “wrong” an action is, aesthetic value to how “beautiful” or “repellent”.

The interesting questions of ethical value are not typically “right or wrong” but instead “right or more right”.

Does it matter where or in what circumstances you wear pheromones? Are the ethical duties owed different in a social or romantic context than in a business / commerce context?

For example, I imagine a sign hanging over the door of the bars I enter saying “Enter at your own risk” or “Caution: raw humanity marinated in ethanol.”

I don’t have an answer, but “we owe them nothing” is probably close to where I’m looking for my “best value” ethical choice.

[Jasmin]

@Gone_with_the_Wind

Some might use the word duty. Duties are not necessarrily just burdens. A duty can be a saving grace.

I like the word “duty” way more than I like “debt”. It connotates something more noble. Sometimes I like to think a very noble crew are the types to linger these boards and use the tools we offer.

But owe? I don’t owe people 'nothin.

If I’m already pheromonally registering a spike on their mental radar, I help myself to the priviledge of making their day even just a smidge more awesome. I don’t know if that’s duty, debt, or dashingness?

I like "y"our bullet points, Mark!

[terry0400-40]

If nothing comes without a price, then i may owe nothing, but what is there, that comes without a price ? And how do i know if i have paid the price ? or even if i am going to pay the price ? And if so, then what have i ?. Dont bother, i dont want to confuse myself either, besides dinner is ready.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

Thoughtful questions, Terry! Hope you had a good dinner.

It’s interesting that so many people are coming down on, or leaning towards, the “don’t owe them nothing!” side.

Right now the question raised in this thread is primarily a matter of personal ethics. However, it may not always be so.

Most of the people posting on this forum are convinced of the ability of these “messenger” molecules to alter behavior. At least to alter behavior in a statistical sense of a group of people exhibiting predictible behavior changes, if not in the sense of completely removing a “victim’s” free will to make choices. If we weren’t convinced we wouldn’t keep spending our money on these chemicals.

However, as has been noted, most people think we’re crazy. They don’t think, or don’t admit, that their behaviors may change due to just a sniff of a few molecules of some chemical. Sure, everyone admits that if you snort a bunch of cocaine up your nose it affects your chemistry, but they hesitate to believe that a few messenger molecules can have an effect. A few researchers have positive results though. As more people validate these pheremone effects through their own experience, and as more good research becomes available, I expect this situation to change.

When it does change, and when a big enough percentage of society recognises the potential of pheromones for behavior modification, the question I asked in this thread may move from the realm of personal ethics to the realm of leglislation.

I used to use a liquid precursor of HGH prior to MA workouts and sparring. The stuff tasted like solvent. It loosened me up considerably, but without loss of coordination. It also tended to have a “sexy” feel, and in larger doses would induce sleep. The stuff gained notariety as a “date rape” drug, and is now illegal. It is not beyond my imagination that pheromones might be legislated in then future, for similar reasons.

Society takes a particular interest in protecting children. For instance, consumption of alcohol is legal, even though it is recognised that getting a gal drunk is an effective way to get laid. The behavioral modification effects of alcohol are well recognised and accepted by society. However, it is still illegal in most places to give alcohol to minors, and giving it to minors for “immoral purposes” will in general run afoul of a variety of laws.

I recall reading somewhere on a forum of a lawsuit (settled out of court, as many are) in which the plaintiff alleged harm due to the use of pheromones on her. That lawsuit may be the tip of an iceberg, in which the government becomes aware of chemical forms of communication.

There are interesting differences between the behavior modification substances society has chosen to regulate (to answer the question in this thread for us), and pheromones.

• Most such substances work by gross chemical means, and must be ingested, injected, smoked, etc. Pheromones seem to be a communication, with more similarity to reading a book, hooking up to a “mind machine,” or joining a group in a song, than a gross assult on our bodily chemistry.
• Also pheromones are non-selective. Everyone in the pheromone cloud is exposed to the message. For instance, if adults and children are present, they’re all getting the messenger molecules.
  *]Perhaps the most intriguing difference is that our bodies produce pheromones naturally. However this may not be as much of a difference as it seems at first glance. Our bodies also produce chemicals very similar to opiates, and society regulates narcotics. And as the understanding of these chemical messengers advances, I expect to see effective communication molecules developed that do not have counterparts in our natural secretions.
  I’m not sure that bringing up the ethical questions to individuals will alter or even slow what’s going to happen as society at large takes note of these chemicals. However, these are things that cross my mind, and I appreciate the chance to bounce these thoughts off the good people of this forum.

[Lor]

Most of the people posting on this forum are convinced of the ability of these “messenger” molecules to alter behavior. At least to alter behavior in a statistical sense of a group of people exhibiting predictible behavior changes, if not in the sense of completely removing a “victim’s” free will to make choices. If we weren’t convinced we wouldn’t keep spending our money on these chemicals.

i dont think most of the veteran users think its altering anyone.

alter: to make different as in size or shape.to change.

its not changing or making different anyone who is feeling an inclination to do something or behave a certain way .

encouraging is only encouraging.

its saying

“this is how i am. like it? great. dont? thats okay too. but incase you didnt hear me, this is how i am”

YOU may be convinced and keep buying because you feel you are affecting a person’s free will;
i venture to guess many here do not buy for that reason.

now, the only research i have read that convinces me there is any manipulation involved is when a female’s physical cycles are affected by both male and dominant female pheromones present.

again, nothing that doesnt happen outside of using these chemicals.

I’m not sure that bringing up the ethical questions to individuals will alter or even slow what’s going to happen as society at large takes note of these chemicals. However, these are things that cross my mind, and I appreciate the chance to bounce these thoughts off the good people of this forum.

its only an ethical question if we answer in the agreement that we can force someone to be something they are not.

i just dont think wearing pheromones gives me that much power.

on the other hand,
aromatherepy has the ability to encourage or enhance mood.
color therepy as well.
homeopathy isnt really ingesting anything substancial but is reguarded.

i cant wait to read on the newspaper-

i need an anullment because i never would have married her if it werent for all the glade aromatherepy candles in the room!

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

He he he …

Lor, I will now fulfil the duty I feel I owe you, as someone I am communicating with. I wasn’t able to clearly transmit my ideas, so my personal sense of duty drives me to clarify.

Besides, it’s fun to interact with you old, battle-scared, vets.

@Lor

i dont think most of the veteran users think its altering anyone.

alter: to make different as in size or shape.to change.

its not changing or making different anyone who is feeling an inclination to do something or behave a certain way .

encouraging is only encouraging.

its saying

“this is how i am. like it? great. dont? thats okay too. but incase you didnt hear me, this is how i am”

YOU may be convinced and keep buying because you feel you are affecting a person’s free will;
i venture to guess many here do not buy for that reason.

I wrote of altering behavior, not people. And when I wrote behavior what I meant was observable behavior. You yourself have noted remarkable alterations of visible behavior on the forum. For instance, the infamous “Lor pheromone soaked tissues hidden at the bar” experiment, in which people tended to congregate around the soaked tissues that they couldn’t see, and engage in “deep” conversations while doing so. That observable congregation and conversation was a visible and measurable alteration of behavior, and I highly suspect your experiment is reproducable.

Free will is a sticky and ill defined concept. However, as far as my personal thoughts and experiences go, I don’t think pheremones overcome anyone’s free will. When I wrote:

Most of the people posting on this forum are convinced of the ability of these “messenger” molecules to alter behavior. At least to alter behavior in a statistical sense of a group of people exhibiting predictible behavior changes, if not in the sense of completely removing a “victim’s” free will to make choices.

I was drawing a contrast between alterations of behavior and absolute control of behavior, and noting that many of us, like me, would not subscribe to the absolute control or loss of free will hypothesis. I suspect from what you’ve written before that you share a similar view, but I could have misunderstood you.

@Lor

…now, the only research i have read that convinces me there is any manipulation involved is when a female’s physical cycles are affected by both male and dominant female pheromones present.

again, nothing that doesnt happen outside of using these chemicals.

That is one physiological effect. Others that have been noted on the forum here are sleepiness, headaches, and depression. Are you suggesting that the physiological effects like those above are manipulation, while psychological effects like an enhanced sense of trust, are not?

@Lor

its only an ethical question if we answer in the agreement that we can force someone to be something they are not.

Alas, in my world things are not quite so black and white. There is a whole continium of influence, from absolute forcing to the gentlest of suggestions. Few influencing factors are clearly on the end of absolute force. Think of the possible levels of coercion or influence you are able to apply to a person. At some point you may recognize that you’ve passed the level you feel ethically comfortable with. And society itself may make decisions as to what levels in the continium are acceptable.

@Lor

i just dont think wearing pheromones gives me that much power.

on the other hand,
aromatherepy has the ability to encourage or enhance mood.
color therepy as well.
homeopathy isnt really ingesting anything substancial but is reguarded.

i cant wait to read on the newspaper-

i need an anullment because i never would have married her if it werent for all the glade aromatherepy candles in the room!

You know, I think (and hope) you’re right. There are a lot of ways of influencing behavior, and I hope society continues to believe pheromones are marginally effective, if at all. I hope the ethical decisions continue to be on our personal level.

Entepreneurs and marketing types tend to be sharper than legislators though. I just realized, I’m going to have to be on my own guard for pheromone influences at the used car dealership, or in the Glade candles. Otherwise I may find myself tangled up with a a beautiful siren like yourself!

[Lor]

Are you suggesting that the physiological effects like those above are manipulation, while psychological effects like an enhanced sense of trust, are not?

nahhhhhh.
i just meant if someone wanted to argue the point, i would have to agree, but not more so than agreeing that their decision to wink at me might encourage me to communicate when otherwise,i would have been shy.

im glad you mentioned the trust sense.

thats probably the only enhancement i disagree with on this whole pheromone usage thing.
i mean,im open to the idea of it, but my intuition tells me other’s gut-instinct far surpasses any drug or chemical trust enhancement.what they act on however is their bad.
heh heh OR good.

i guess i just think with all the ways we interact with one another, in spite of whatever we use physically or mentally to affect another person, everything in the whole world comes down to intent.

intent is the magickal word here.

i think it takes a pretty dedicated poster here to try to disguise their intent,otherwise i feel everyone is pretty much open about what they are looking to achieve.

i also agree i am the minority in this forum, as i believe that intent comes back to you, not that anyone gets what they deserve; but that they get what their attention is on.
i lived in fear and saw more fear.
i lived in love and saw more love.
i dont wish to imply that i deserved either.

i just want to mention here with a sense of humor that i have caused WAY more headaches serving a good drink; i have been given more headaches by old ladies wearing scary perfume; our government has caused me well more depression; and brilliant posters with vocabularies that make me sound like Dora the Explorer have illicited more sleep from me than i care to admit.

damn.
i need to negative-rep myself for calling me Dora the Explorer

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

@MarkL

What do we owe if the response is:

• talking nonstop about things they normally keep secret
• wanting to celebrate and spending the rent money
• buying the wearer a drink
• nonverbal expressions of sexual desire
• voices that tell them to kill
• noticing the wearer and thinking “interesting”
• never raised from unconscious to awareness
• etc.

I would find #1, #2, and #5 a bit disturbing and perhaps try to correct things before innocent people got hurt. #5 is probably unlikely, and #1 and #2, per Lor’s theory, might occurr in people that tended to lean that way anyway. Hard to say, but I think I might try to gently steer them to safer territory. (Assuming they hadn’t irritated me too much earlier.)

@MarkL

…

Does it matter where or in what circumstances you wear pheromones? Are the ethical duties owed different in a social or romantic context than in a business / commerce context?

I suspect the context does matter, although there is crossover. For instance, introducing someone to a deal and getting them to sign a contract without having a chance to come out of a pheremonally altered state may be questionable. I’m not a lawyer, but I wonder what the precedents are in the case of getting someone drunk and having them sign a contract.

Here’s an interesting case in which context matters. Someone posted a while back about OD’ing on 'none by crushing a bottle of ammo in his back pocket, and having a police officer yelling and screaming at him on the way home, when he was doing nothing bad. Imagine that the officer felt threatened, drew his gun and wounded our pheromone user. The officer goes to trial, and uses a legal defense of “self defense.” He has to convince the jury that a “reasonable man” would have felt threatened in his situation. He has the video from his cruiser, which shows a guy walking down the street, not overtly threatening. The opposing attorney knows our guy had ammo soaked pants. Should he release that information to the defense attorney? If he does, should the judge allow the jury to be exposed to our guy soaked in ammo, prior to makeing their decision as to whether or not a “reasonable man” would have felt threatened?

[Pheraoh]

@Lor

ts only an ethical question if we answer in the agreement that we can force someone to be something they are not.

i just dont think wearing pheromones gives me that much power.

on the other hand,
aromatherepy has the ability to encourage or enhance mood.
color therepy as well.
homeopathy isnt really ingesting anything substancial but is reguarded.

i cant wait to read on the newspaper-

i need an anullment because i never would have married her if it werent for all the glade aromatherepy candles in the room!

Funny you should mention that. I can’t remember where I read about it, but this woman was suing a man over pheromone usage. They met, went back to his place and had sex. The next day she saw the bottle of pheromones on the nightstand. She flipped out and wants so sue him because the pheromones made her have sex with him. Wish I could find the news article again, I’ll try poking around the net for it.

[Gone_with_the_Wind]

@Pheraoh

Funny you should mention that. I can’t remember where I read about it, but this woman was suing a man over pheromone usage. They met, went back to his place and had sex. The next day she saw the bottle of pheromones on the nightstand. She flipped out and wants so sue him because the pheromones made her have sex with him. Wish I could find the news article again, I’ll try poking around the net for it.

Yes, that’s what I was thinking of when I wrote:

@Gone_with_the_Wind

I recall reading somewhere on a forum of a lawsuit (settled out of court, as many are) in which the plaintiff alleged harm due to the use of pheromones on her…

Hope you can find it.

[Phoenix]

@Pheraoh

Funny you should mention that. I can’t remember where I read about it, but this woman was suing a man over pheromone usage. They met, went back to his place and had sex. The next day she saw the bottle of pheromones on the nightstand. She flipped out and wants so sue him because the pheromones made her have sex with him. Wish I could find the news article again, I’ll try poking around the net for it.

Pheromones don’t make or force anyone to do anything. But people will do anything not to take responsability for their actions, unfortunately..