It's Macho To Stand Up For Women..

[Visionary7903]

@Lor

i know someone that works in a shelter in newengland.
she tells me most of who she sees in there will go back to the abuser.
from what i have seen, in the states there is something “romantic” about staying with someone even if its killing you. commitment for some (including my sister at one time) means being more commited to the relationship than to yourself.

Pheromones might offer a potential aid for abuse victims in ending the cycle. Perhaps to break subconscious patterns of unhealthy choices in members of the opposite sex…

Le Sillage (May 14, 2005):
“…(when -none successfully snags a young woman who does NOT happen to be ovulating at the time, watch out - they’re often recreating some past trauma/history)…”

Ash (November 21, 2003):
"…I believe that patterns of attraction for women (and men), both physical and psychological, are “written” very early in life much like data is “written” to a HD. Nothing new about that thought but I’m coming to believe that mones “re-write” those subconscious patterns, or at least expand them. I see this as a very positive thing!!! Take for instance the woman that has “victim” imprinted on her drive. Her dad was a giant A** hole, lots of abuse growing up and through out her life she keeps going from one prick to the next. Enter none-A**hole guy using mones. Bingo, pattern broken. Very kewl!!! She still has a victim mentality but with the new, none-victimizing guy, she has a chance at a much better life by breaking away from the “abuse” pattern.

I believe that our mone signature is actual the exhaust created by the burning up of various body/brain amines which are then purged from our bodies through sweat glands. If true, it would explain colloquialisms such as “I could smell her fear” or “I sensed his power when he entered the room”. Take the victimized girl, put her in a potentially victimizing situation again. Her body begins to flood with “fight or flight” amines but because of her early training as a victim the amines are heavy toward the “flight” or fear side of production. The burning up of those amines specific to fear creates exhaust which forms her particular “victim” pheromone signiture. The potential victimizer picks up on her fear and weakness mone signature the same way a wolf knows which, out of all the animals in the herd, is the weakest. He smells it!!

How cool would it be, how life changing for some, to put together a mone perfume combo that pattern rape and abuse victims could use in their everyday walk through life? Something that would keep the A**holes away and maybe even re-write the victims signature pattern. Obviously the potential exists right now. I believe it does anyway…"

Holmes (November 21, 2003):
"Ash:

Quote:
Take for instance the woman that has “victim” imprinted on her drive. Her dad was a giant A* hole, lots of abuse growing up and through out her life she keeps going from one prick to the next. Enter none-A**hole guy using mones. Bingo, pattern broken. Very kewl!!! She still has a victim mentality but with the new, none-victimizing guy, she has a chance at a much better life by breaking away from the "abuse" pattern. *

Very interesting point. Do you think that would happen? Or would she eventually pick up on this guy’s “non-victimizing” ways and lose respect for him? Those from abusive upbringings/relationships often have a difficult time respecting anything but an abusive personality, no?

That non-victimizing guy would do well to wear -none day and night for a long time.

Holmes"

Kari (November 21, 2003):
"Very intriging theory. I would like to see what mones might do against ingrained patterns, if anything. Since olefactory stimulus is considered to be among the most compelling.

Abuse victims often choose abusers, however, because: 1) it’s a kind of “love” that they have learned to expect and understand, and 2) because they often believe they aren’t worthy of anything better.

The abused usually have to re-learn their value, as people. They also have to get used to more constructive forms of love, acknowledgement, and recognition. It’s a learning process that breaks the pattern."

[Mohammad_Shah]

Hi! This global issue has been around since the begining. We all certainly hope that more people will come forward to help to make some changes at least in their perception. My sincere thanks to all the posters in this thread.

God bless.

• Mohammad

[Visionary7903]

Good to see another forum oldtimer around Mohammad and thanks for starting the thread a few years back!

Now to something many domestic violence victims face, ‘Learned helplessness’:

(source: The Washington Monthly)

Learned helplessness works as follows. When an animal, human or non-human, is exposed to repeated trauma that it cannot control, it sometimes just gives up trying, even when, later, it is possible to escape that trauma. Martin Seligman first hit on the idea when doing conditioning experiments with dogs: he gave the dogs shocks in a hammock from which they could not escape, and then put them in a box that allowed them to escape from shocks (which were delivered through the floor) by jumping over a barrier.
Normally, dogs scramble around trying to escape from the shocks, jump the barrier by accident, figure out (after a few tries) that this is how they can escape from the shocks, and then jump the barrier as soon as the shocks start. But the dogs who had been shocked in the hammocks, in which they could neither escape nor control the shocks, didn’t do that. They ran around for about thirty seconds, and then just lay down on the floor and whimpered.
In the book in which he describes learned helplessness, Seligman cites an even more striking finding: another researcher held wild rats in his hand until they stopped struggling, and then put them in a water tank that they could not escape from. Normal wild rats will swim for 60 hours before drowning. The rats who had been held until they stopped struggling, however, swam for thirty minutes and then drowned.

Learned helplessness happens to humans too:
“Extending the ramifications of these findings to humans, Seligman and his colleagues found that human motivation to initiate responses is also undermined by a lack of control over one’s surroundings. Further research has shown that learned helplessness disrupts normal development and learning and leads to emotional disturbances, especially depression.”
That’s learned helplessness. You put an animal, human or non-human, in a situation in which bad things happen that it can neither escape nor control, and eventually it just gives up.

An interesting approach might involve using some of the pheromone formulas for women based on A314 (I think MX134 was the version used by women in the past). In certain situations, it would give the woman experiencing learned helplessness some kind of a ‘wind at her back’ for her attempts at escape of such situations. The push would still have to come from her don’t get me wrong but like MHarris says in an old post below, there is something in A314 that provides that ‘invisible support for your will’. While the abuser would definitely not be swayed, it is the change in attitude it would bring to the victim and sense of empowerment.

The keys would have to be:

• the A314-like product would have to have be supplemented with other mones on the side which would be rotated ideally (to keep the wearer as receptive as possible to the effects of the mones and to keep others’ as receptive as possible which will result in a positive feedback loop back towards the wearer further enhancing her confidence);
• there would have to be some kind of planned push from the wearer to change the situation;
• there would be a plan in place as to what to do to get out of the situation (perhaps with input/help from social workers and other members of the victim’s support network);
• most importantly of course, the victim would have to have the realistic possibility to escape (and unless she is stuck in a dungeon, the opening to escape should always be there, even if the victim feels something that is not based in reality after being beat down for so long - that ‘there is no hope’)…

Can you overdose on A314, and how many drops would it take?

That is one of the few “problems”. In a way, I don’t actually like the amount of status that A314 brings. People treat you like you’re better than them – and I don’t think that’s in tune reality. I think all people are incredibly capable (whether or not they use that capability), so, right or wrong, I tend to see people as equals. Now while I don’t necessarily like being put on a pedestal, I do like the amount of COOPERATION the status change brings. Almost anything I ask for, I’ll get with …

MHarris (March 30, 2006):
"…That is one of the few “problems”.

In a way, I don’t actually like the amount of status that A314 brings. People treat you like you’re better than them – and I don’t think that’s in tune reality.

I think all people are incredibly capable (whether or not they use that capability), so, right or wrong, I tend to see people as equals.

Now while I don’t necessarily like being put on a pedestal, I do like the amount of COOPERATION the status change brings. Almost anything I ask for, I’ll get with A314 … and people tend to cooperate with you happily, not begrudgingly or with secret disdain.

It also gives me incredible access to others. I’ve been able to meet all the key people I’ve wanted to with it.

A314 + a little self volition = some incredible personal power.

Really great for a “man with a plan” – like invisible support for your will. You could say “it’s got it your back”. "

[Mohammad_Shah]

Great contribution, Visionary!

Keep up the good work!

[Visionary7903]

@Mohammad_Shah

Great contribution, Visionary!

Keep up the good work!

Thanks! Though this is a heavy topic indeed, the ‘epitome of Instant Shine’ is a good name for you.

Now to some more, this time focusing on two main types of batterers:

Jacobson and Gottman (1998) studied the violent couple and found there were two general types of batterers: the pit bull and the cobra.

The pitbull is more impulsive to what the woman does or does not do while the cobra’s aggressiveness is usually well thought through.

The pitbull’s anger escalates and is visible in his physiological signs such as heart pounding, blood rushing to the head, and heavy breathing accompanying his rising aggressiveness. He won’t let go of the woman.

In contrast, the cobra gets calmer as he gets angrier and appears to be under very tight control, often physiologically shutting down with a slower heart rate and more deliberate actions.

It has been found that women in a relationship with the cobra have a more difficult time leaving the relationship due to fear that he will continue to stalk and harrass her, using all kinds of verbal threats and surveillance techniques to keep her under his control.

Dutton (1998) also distinguished between men who were more instrumental in using violence to attain specific ends, and those who were more impulsive in their violence.

To Dutton, the explosions of the impulsive batterer signified ‘over-control’ as a result of being unassertive. So Dutton saw an extreme in either of two directions:

• being unassertive, leading to occasional explosions (the ‘over controlled’ batterer);
• or being the dominator, who uses every form of control (financial, emotional and physical) rather than negotiation. (Dutton 1998)

Fonagy (1997) drew similar distinctions between ‘predatory’ violence that is planned and purposeful, and ‘affective’ violence that is a reaction to a perceived threat and accompanied by heightened arousal.

[Visionary7903]

So how can we better control the more impulsive batterer, the pitbull?

Compulsory enforced DHA (along with EPA) supplementation may offer a key part of the solution. The evidence that DHA-deficiency is a cause of violent and impulsive behaviour is supportive but not conclusive. However I believe that many of the studies have not used sufficient doses. Also the results obviously depend on the impulsivity-level of the subject - pitbull batterers are likely to be more impulsively aggressive than the general population and so may respond especially well to high doses of DHA.

As to the administration of the DHA/EPA, the following points may apply:

1. While the Omega 3s are generally recognised as quite safe, safeguards would have to be in place (like a good quality antioxidant like high Gamma Tocopherol Vitamin E be administered with the DHA/EPA product).

2. A highly concentrated product may have to be ‘prescribed’ to the pitbull batterer. It may take too many of the standard 180 mg EPA, 120 mg DHA Fish Oil pills, for compulsory, enforced daily use.
   Highly concentrated products from the reputable Nordic Naturals or Carlson brands may be the way to go. Alternatively, the prescription product Lovaza has 465 mg EPA and 375 mg DHA per pill in their Ethyl Ester forms.

3. To enforce compliance, part of any court order involving this type of batterer may include random blood testing for serum DHA levels over a long time period. This would show that the prescribed high doses of DHA are being administered to the pitbull-type batterer.

4. If someone is strictly vegetarian and cannot get Lovaza prescribed, there are always algal formulations containing DHA from Martek. In addition algal forms of EPA have started appearing.

5. The dosage of DHA/EPA that would be prescribed to each pitbull batterer, while relatively high, would not be dangerously high. In general, the health benefits (like a better cholesterol profile) should far outweigh any negatives. Though anything is possible with each individual subject, the risk can be managed - besides there would be benefits to society of keeping the batterer’s impulsive aggression under control.

6. The DHA/EPA wouldn’t be a ‘standalone’ treatment. This treatment would be in addition to some kind of plan to reign in the abuse (perhaps one undertaken with the guidance of a social worker). But the DHA/EPA would be essential and compulsory. It would take less than a minute a day after all to take the pills - an extremely easy and painless measure.

7. The high quality, high dose DHA/EPA products could well be subsidised by the government. After all, the pills are likely to pay for themselves many times over (for society at large that is) in terms of keeping the aggression and hostility under control. Prevention is better than cure after all!

I will provide more evidence, later but below is one study that summarises the benefits of DHA/EPA for aggression/hostility-control…

Prog Lipid Res. 2008 Jul;47(4):221-32. Epub 2008 Mar 4.
Fish oils and aggression or hostility.

Hamazaki T, Hamazaki K.
Department of Clinical Sciences, Institute of Natural Medicine, University of Toyama, 2680 Sugitani, Toyama-city, Toyama 9300194, Japan.
Abstract

Fish oils have long been known to protect the heart from ischemic heart disease and fatal arrhythmia. Recently they have also been suggested to protect the heart in a literal sense! Although not all reports on fish oils and psychiatric disorder support the latter notion, many of them claim that fish oils were effective. The point is that, different from currently prescribed psychiatric medicines, fish oils do not do harm to any part of the body. We have been working on the effects of fish oils on aggressive behavior and hostility. Unfortunately this area of research is not mature yet. The number of related papers is rather limited, so we will take aggression and/or hostility in a broader sense including oppositional behavior, violence etc. in this review. We found fourteen intervention studies checking the effects of fish oils on aggressive behavior. Eleven of them showed the aggression/hostility-controlling effects of fish oils one way or another. We did not try to summarize those effects by meta-analysis, because we thought that the methods of research were too heterogeneous. The mechanisms as to how fish oils affect aggression/hostility is not clear yet, but several possible mechanisms have been postulated. Among them, activation of the serotonergic neuron system is the most promising. The research area of fish oils and aggression/hostility is clearly important from the medical and social points of view.

PMID: 18358242 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[SteveO]

Great stuff. Such a pleasure to have the search king

[Visionary7903]

The impulsive batterer and ‘non-aggressive assertiveness’

Thanks S… It’s good to be back.

I wrote above that to Dutton (1998), the explosions of the impulsive batterer signified ‘over-control’ as a result of being unassertive.

The ‘over controlled’ batterer may have his impulsive aggression sufficiently controlled by consistently having his DHA levels raised through supplementation. However, I believe that something key to any successful long term treatment may still need to be added.

In a 1998 study, Eisenberg et al showed that an ADHD-associated version of the gene DRD4 is associated with better health in nomadic tribesmen, and yet may cause malnourishment in their settled cousins. The full text describes a potential reason for the result: “Increased impulsivity, ADHD-like traits, novelty-seeking like traits, aggression, violence and/or activity levels may help nomads obtain food resources, or exhibit a degree of behavioural unpredictability that is protective against interpersonal violence or robberies.”

I do believe that impulsive aggression can also signal to some women at least subconsciously that this is someone who can defend ‘the fort’. This is someone who will straighten things out once in a while and is not necessarily the pushuver that people might think he is via his generally unassertive demeanour. If you are taking the impulsive aggressive trait away from an already unassertive male (via high dose DHA supplementation), then he might not be able to show that he can defend ‘her and any future babies’ to a woman. The impulsive aggressive trait may have been evolutionary selected for, in some circumstances.

So you need to find ways to increase his non-aggressive assertiveness to compensate. After all, what man would want to continue on a treatment path that would make him LESS attractive to the opposite sex (even if he turned into more of a ‘nice guy’, good citizen for society ).

Also another fact. Some people need the stimulation of a ‘fight’ - they are understimulated and a fight subconsciously provides them with the adrenalin and cortisol they subconsciously need to get themselves going. Some domestic violence may be a case of such scenarios spiralling out of control (that’s what happens when nutrients essential for temper control, especially DHA, are in short supply!)

In the above examples, it sounds like the issue would be ADHD primarily inattentive type-related, and that issue would have to be diagnosed and properly treated along with any high dose DHA supplementation for the impulsive batterer.

But the impulsive batterer, who ‘over-controls’ as a result of being unassertive, may have other unrelated issues.

For example, in a 2010 study, Kashdan and McKnight identified a subset of people with social anxiety who are aggressive, impulsive novelty seekers who deviate from the prototypical person with the disorder (the prototypical person with social anxiety is someone who is shy, submissive, inhibited, and risk averse).

Other things that may help (even if there is no formal disorder to be treated) the impulsive batterer may be related to hormone levels: weight training, and nutrition to get their testosterone levels up. High Testosterone + High Serotonin levels should result in a more consistent ‘non-impulsive aggressive but controlled assertive’ mindset.

Anyway the point of the post was: whatever the issue (or disorder) is for each impulsive batterer, it would have to be identified and worked on in addition to any compulsory supplementation to increase blood DHA levels. This two pronged approach (on top of the various counselling methods currently in use) should result in being able to forcefully maneuvre the ‘impulsive batterer’ toward a mental situation of ‘non-aggressive assertiveness’. The move would be beneficial to society, to reducing the domestic violence, and it should be beneficial even to the batterer himself.

Andy (June 25, 2002):
"Re: For all the older guys…a question about life…
It’s a small path surrounded with rifts from all sides. I think the best way is to be something I call the “mr. nice pussyhunter defender”. You gotta be nice to the woman/girl of your desire but she needs to know that you are potent enought to satisfy her in all needs and powerfull enough to hold her at all costs.
You just need to be mr. niceguy and mr. axeswinging childreneater in one person. It’s not that simple because you can easily tend to much to one side, it looks like tending more to the alphatype side is better than beeing too nice. That’s how herd alphas react, show your teeth but support your females and lower males when needed and chase away or destroy intruders.
… in human relations often one of the factors given above is substituted with money.

Sum:
be nice when needed
bark at everybody who ist after your female
defend her
make her life easier (often with money)
f*** her like hell (sorry for the f word … but that’s the way you should think)
show her that you are able to fullfill all of the above points, before they get important

That are my own conclusions and they worked well for me. I don’t dare anybody to try this at home . It might fail … it might work. I am in a lucky relationship for some years now. I got her beeing like this and I hold her that way. It is mostly part of my nature (though I’d like to be nicer, it’s hard to be a little cruel sometimes). I urge everybody not to play a role, just be natural and just adapt the “harder line” to your personality."

Women, why do you choose a man for marriage?

well now - this is sort of what i’m getting at. men and women have different biological imperatives. to a man it’s about spreading seed, to a woman it’s about finding a worthy mate. which only makes sense, because being a mother leaves you soemwhat vulnerable, because now you not only have to watch your back, you have to watch the backs of your children too (i’m speaking in a very primitive way - not 21st century, we can bring home the bacon, and fry it in a pan) So biologically speakign y…

Nunya (March 30, 2007):
“…well now - this is sort of what i’m getting at. men and women have different biological imperatives. to a man it’s about spreading seed, to a woman it’s about finding a worthy mate. which only makes sense, because being a mother leaves you soemwhat vulnerable, because now you not only have to watch your back, you have to watch the backs of your children too (i’m speaking in a very primitive way - not 21st century, we can bring home the bacon, and fry it in a pan) So biologically speaking you need the help-mate that can help you hold down the fort and ensure the survival of your young. So from that perspective women are wired to be selective in a mate, and to look for commitment, and a suitable spouse…”