Nioxin, build up, etc.

There’s a boatload of Nioxin products .. and I was curious about which product was recommended (and why) and mentioned that in another thread.

But now I have a more fundamental question about build up.

Pheromones are aromatic molecules – and have some level of volatility, or they’d be difficult to get airborne.

Now, if there is a spider-man molecule that latches to skin and stays there, HOW COULD that possibly result in overdose? Having an inch thick layer of -none on my skin does nothing to the people around me, unless the molecules are flying off of that layer (volatile). But we’ve already established that they aren’t volatile enough to escape their attraction to skin.

Is it, perhaps, a possibility that pheros build up on skin, then something happens that releases them, all at once to create OD? If you think that’s the case, please help me understand the dynamics, because I can’t see it.

My mental model for now, either “stuff” does build up (in which case it’s not out there for others to sniff) or it’s volatile.

Your thoughts?

would the build up couse your skin to dry up or tighten your skin.?. for some reason when i get out of the shower my skin seems to be dry to the point were it seems to be tight when i turn my neck also my head well shave my head . i put some lotion to help it but its no good it helps for a while then its get tight & dry again is that by the build up.?. also whats the effect of putting body lotion on then putting on pheromones will lotion change the effect or does nothin..im just learning & cant tell the effects it does to others as yet but it change me i know that for a fact lol & i like it..

Maybe it’s just that humans react to very low concentrations of pheromones. So androstenone might not be so volatile that it’s all gone in a few hours, but volatile enough that somebody across the street sitting inside a car can detect your phero sillage?

Yes, I think it is possible to overdose … but how the so-called build up works in creating an overdose is just not clear to me.

Walking from a cavernous, crowded smoke-filled dance floor of a club with good ventilation systems – into a smallish, open, unsmoky restaurant dining room with light vent –> the levels of phero that are effective in the club could easily be too much in the restaurant.

Or, lets say that you just cover your body with -none, a sheet of -none film from head to toe. While you are physically quiet, the -none stays “spiderman” like, attached to your body. But then you get physically active – and now perhaps the molecules are more like jumping spiders than clinging ones – leaping from your body (volatile.)

I’m still wondering about trigger pheromones – which might cause the body to produce MUCH larger quantities of other pheromones.

As it is, I’m just craving a more sophisticated, detailed … factual … model of build up, and not yet able to create that on my own.

Note: Maybe we need the concept of a “half life” for various pheromones. Yes, activity, temperature, and humidity influence diffusion rates. But, for a given environment, how long before half of the molecules you’ve applied to the surface of your skin have diffused?

I think this is a very interesting question. Before I give any sort an answer, can you smell androstenone?

Because if you can, you’ll notice it’s like any other scent you’ve applied, like a cologne. Except that it stays on the skin or on clothes/objects much longer. I found out most of my ODs were because of spillage and buildup on clothes, not my skin. I’ve started to use Oxi-Clean to clean my clothes, and from now on I laundry a lot more often. Since I started using Oxi-Clean, my results have been more consistent. But I still have to wash some of my clothes over again because it seems some of my jeans still smell like androstenone, and also towels!

I bought Nioxin shampoo, from here: Nioxin System 5 Cleanser 33.8 oz - 1 Liter

But Nioxin wasn’t the only thing mentioned. I also bought Hydrogen Peroxide (3%). I think PheroQuirk mentioned 5% but I couldn’t find that at the store. Anyway, it’s really cheap and does wonders for your skin. When I take a shower, I pour hydrogen peroxide on my application spots and scrub a little. Like my neck and chest. Then I scrub the same spots with the Nioxin shampoo. It seems to be working great. As long as your clothes are also clear of pheromones, it should get rid of most buildup.

I haven’t tried this yet, but I want to try making a solution of Hydrogen Peroxide and Nioxin, and then use that. There’s also anti-bacterial soaps and lotions that you can buy. I’m going to try and make a solution of all these and see how it works as a “phero-remover.”

Definitely wash off your application spots before going to bed. It seems like when you sleep pheromone build up spikes. Check your bed sheets, pillow cases, etc. also for residue, and wash them often. I guess it all depends how sensitive your body is to androstenone.

Even though I haven’t confirmed it yet, I’m pretty sure I have blood type O. Maybe blood type is one of the factors that determines diffusion from your skin. I think the rate of diffusion might be greater for people with type O blood.

I’d like to say more, but I have to go. I’ll be back later, hopefully smarter people have replied by then :wink:

So many pheromones are the end-product of bacterial metabolism of steroid hormones. How does the body modulate phero output ?

I can smell pherofunk on my towels and have to change them pretty frequently

Another excellent question! :cool:

how much of this is driven by the adrenals (whether it’s reduced cortisol boosting T or the effects of T, or amped-up pregnenolone + androgen production?). are adrenals faster than the gonads?

My order of unscented -none is on it’s way; I’ll have an answer for you soon, I hope.:wink:

It appears that I don’t notice androstenone as a “nose” odor – the 10mcg per spray bottle seems perfectly neutral to me as an aroma.

I do seem to sense a “thickness” in my senses in the presence of the -none, but it may be the onset of a head cold.

Just out of curiosity, have you tried the none-on-an-inanimate-object experiment? (I never got round to it, but it was mentioned on another forum ages back - close your eyes, mark a newspaper with a drop of none, wait for it to dry then come back to the aper and see if that spot jumps out at you).

Others claim to have been able to train themselves to smell 'none. Don’t recall how. I mostly can, but now and then that ability seems to go away.

I’m still struggling with a model of “build up” that makes sense to me.

Overdose is just a case of applying too much phero.

Let’s say that you apply 40mcg of -none molecules to your chest. Also, let’s suppose that exactly 20 mcg of those molecules jump off your chest and into someone’s nose. For convenience, let’s say they jump off in exactly four hours.

It’s the fact that they have jumped OFF your chest, and into the nose, that produces the effect. The molecules still stuck to your chest do nothing, and might as well be kool-aid flavor molecules, because until they do jump off your chest and into someone’s nose, they do nothing. But let’s say that diffusion of 20 mcg per four hours is too much for someone around you to handle – it’s an OD because they cannot hack the rate at which the molecules are arriving to their sensors.

So, let’s assume [1] that the molecules continue to jump off your chest at the same rate – 20 mcg per four hours. After eight hours there’s nothing left on your chest. No build up if the diffusion period discussed here is as short as 4 hours or shorter. But -none doesn’t last forever; if you DON’T OD and you put a reasonable amount on, after 12 hours to a day the amount diminishes to a level that doesn’t produce an effect. So the diffusion rate might not be four hours, but it probably can’t be much more than twenty-four hours.

Or, let’s assume [2] that the molecules somehow know how many of their brothers/sisters/cousins are still hanging onto your chest, and in the next four hours, exactly half of them jump off. From 20 mcg, that would leave 10 mcg on your chest. Another four hours, and half of the molecules jump off again; now, after 12 hours, there are 5 mcg left on your chest. At this rate, after 24 hours (six four-hour periods), there would be 1/64 of the original amount (1 / 2^6) or 0.625 mcg left on your chest. Once again, the half-life might be longer than four hours, but it’s not years.

Or, let’s assume [3] that there’s some threshhold level of -none that can stick to your chest. In this case, let’s assume that it’s 20 mcg. After the first 20 mcg diffuses, the remaining 20 mcg sticks. And stays stuck. In this case, after the first four hours, there would be no effect at all, because no pheromones would be jumping off your chest into someone’s nose. Not until you put more -none on. Then, it might jump off at the same rate as in the first four hours…

This really should be fairly easy to test experimentally. The last case, one puts an OD level of -pheromones all over the body, then waits long enough that there’s no more detectable “-none effect.” Then, apply small amounts of -none until there is a detectable “-none effect.”

The half life concept is easy to understand, but it’s hard to imagine HOW it works physically – unlike radioactive decay, a molecule’s relative volatility should not be “aware” of the presence or lack thereof of other molecules of the same ilk.

My experience and reason say that a modified case #1 should apply; a kind of power distribution, or even a normal distribution of “clinginess”. Each molecule may be identical, but it’s attachment to the body is unique. Or a Poisson distribution of how long any particular molecule stays attached. But there has to be some level of “steady state” if that’s the case.

For each individual, for each molecule, there is some “rate of decay” in diffusion, because the diffusion rate only depends on how much is left on you. But if that’s so, then build-up is not going to be a big problem.

Perhaps, just a guess, a decay rhythm is sustained at 1 mcg of -none a day. If you apply 1 mcg of -none daily, you get a predictable rhythm of diffusion; perhaps you can scale from 1 mcg to some higher level, N mcg, and it just causes the rhythm to rise up in amplitude proportionally – but more than N mcg, and you get OD conditions.

Still, unless there is a spill, any human being should be able to zero in on the level that works for them fairly easily – we do this all the time, determining what time to leave the house for the 8:13am train, allowing for variability in traffic and weather and time to find a parking space, pay, and get on board before the train leaves. Perhaps the first day you allow forty-five minutes, but you find that you are waiting on the platform for twenty-two minutes. You then do successive approximations and correct. When you miss the train (equal to a phero-OD), you overcorrect.

But unless you’re making randomly large corrections, instead of small, half-the-distance corrections, you home in on the workable sustainable rate fairly fast.

The “magic” of build-up just does not make sense to me. Because what stays stuck to you does not produce an effect in someone until and unless it comes unstuck. And once it is unstuck, it’s no longer counting toward buildup.

It seems to me in the case of -none, some of it is absorbed by the skin and rereleased slowly in your underarm sweat, even if it wasn’t applied at overdose levels to start with. That, I think, could account for “buildup,” and (in my case anyway) seems to be a process that takes 1 to 2 weeks to complete.

This is done by a very complex proces known as ‘bio-feedback’, it regulates all hormone related actions in the body.

I’m not sure exactly what you mean by buildup (presumably just that spraying too much over a period of days can cause an unreasonable level of androstenone) but I believe you’re understanding [2] is really the correct one - it’s a half-life thing, similar to radioactive decay. Of course, the molecules don’t “know” how many others are around - they just randomly let go at a certain point, and this causes an exponential decay curve.

In this instance, if the half-life is a day or so, then you’ll still have half of yesterday’s dose when you reapply, and you’ll end up with 150% of your intended dose on your skin. The following day you’ll be up to 175% etc. and the levels will gradually approach 200%. In fact I have no idea what the half-life really is - it’ll be affected by a number of factors. I doubt it’s more than a few hours, though, in which case this sort of build-up will not be very significant. Nonetheless (no pun intended), there will maybe be enough diffusion still happening after some days for a dog or electronic detectors to pick it up.

Perhaps there are some biofeedback loops involved, e.g. maybe smelling exogenous androstenone causes the wearer to produce more themselves. Also, if you really care about the mathematical modeling side, then I imagine the possibility of airborne pheromone molecules returning to your skin throws the diffusion curve slightly off exponential, but it’s probably a tiny factor.

If the molecule leaves and reattaches, it should still follow a stable diffusion distribution over time. As you say, probably a tiny factor, no more than a minor cycle detour on the Markov chain.

I think your model is spot-on: if you reapply X amount every time that you’ve diffused half of the none on your body, then you will gradually reach a limit cycle between 2X (just after applying) to X (just before applying).

In the example you gave, the period happened to be one day.

But that means that whatever level works, we would be able to reach the correct “workable” level of X by successive approximation. Humans are usually pretty good at that kind of pragmatic local optimization.

Pheromones are not the organisms major concern, hormones are.

Pheromones are just the smell of these hormones. Or better, their echo.

It’s residue (sp?) that leaves the body, after the hormones themselves have done their job INSIDE your body.

Phero’s are in fact just odours that inform others how much and which hormones a person has floating around in his/her body.

So when you talk about biofeedback, its always about someones own hormones in the first place.

There is off course also something as a reaction to ‘strange’ hormones, from the opposite sex for instance. But thats not exactely the same as biofeedback.

However, it will eventually trigger this biofeedback because if a man smells copulins, which may cause his own hormone production to go up, there is biofeedback kicking in at some point to bring the production down again.

Some further playing with the numbers … if after one day, half the -none molecules are gone, then reapplying the same amount X of new -none each day will have you cycling between X and 2X. That’s the example we gave before.

If after one day, only 20% of the -none is gone (1/5 th) then reapplying X amount each day will soon have you cycling between 4X and 5X.

If only one-twelfth of the -none leaves your body in one day, then applying a constant amount X each day would quickly have you building up to wearing a steady fluctuation between 11X and 12X.

But notice something – the slower the diffusion rate (-none jumping off your body into people’s noses) the greater the percentage that is adhering to your body.

BUT – check the math. If you apply 1 mcg of -none per day, you quickly reach a steady state where, NO MATTER HOW MUCH BUILDS UP ON YOUR BODY, you diffuse … exactly 1.0 mcg of -none per day.

That’s unless you argue that every now and then your body suddenly makes a much larger percentage of the -none on your body jump off. A small temperature fluctuation could theoretically cause a lot of pheros to diffuse. So could just having an erection – coinciding with a change in skin tone – that triggers a whole bunch of molecules to fly.

Still having trouble seeing how build-up produces the effects that people have reported. (Overdose DOES make sense to me.)

Searching for threads on hydrogen peroxide, I came back across this question. I’ve learned to distinguish the smell of -none; I don’t find it offensive, just a bit … piquant … and I can detect -none on inanimate objects: spots on my leather jacket where I’ve sprayed it, for example.