The title was longer in my first draft. It used to have the words “in males” on the end. I thought about that for a while before taking it off. Females generally have a lower incidence of observable aggressive behavior than males. However, after reflecting on my experiences I believe that these same two mechanisms also increase the frequency of aggressive behavior in females.
The first mechanism by which the frequency of aggression is increased is by a communication signaling “I am going to aggressively compete to mate with any available female.” Anone sends this type of signal. It will promote aggression in other males actively competing to mate, males trying to protect their mates, and females in non-fertile periods or protecting young. This mechanism is widely recognized. Many people talk about the “bad boy” vibration of certain anone products, and there are numerous anecdotes illustrating this type of aggression in response to anone stimulus.
The second mechanism is much less well acknowledged. This mechanism occurs when the pheromone sends a signal that “I’m safe and I don’t want to fight you.” Nol products send signals of this nature. They are known for enhancing communication and rapport, both of which require a feeling of safety. However, predators respond differently to a signal that a person is safe and will not fight. For someone looking for an opportunity for aggressive behavior, this signal means they can indulge with minimal risk. Such individuals might be muggers, corporate executives looking to display dominance, young males wishing to impress observing females or gang members.
The first mechanism is one more likely to be encountered by young males competing amongst themselves for mating privileges. Older men are less likely to be perceived as an aggressive threat and are thus less likely to stimulate aggressive behaviors when wearing anone.
The second mechanism has no such bias. However, the tendency of older men to have more status, wealth worth stealing, etc may make them more tempting targets for the second type of aggressive behavior.
This is another great post Mr. Gone with the Wind!!!
I liked your original post about competitive and pair bonding strategies as well and think it should be linked to this post.
Androstenone also sends the message, I need a shower and pronto! Seriously, every time I go to the gym I get a snout full and yet most of these guys are peacefully pumping iron and looking at themselves in the mirror. Sweet little narcissistic man hoes. So I’d have to say context is everything when it comes to mones and resulting behavior.
And often behavior doesn’t match the signals. Some predators have evolved the ability to emit mones to attract prey. Some humans may have this ability as well. Criminals such as con artists, pervs, serial killers and rapists often have a calm and comforting persona, wear nice clothing, are clean cut and are smooth talking. Hell, I bet they naturally put out A1! These turds could bathe in androstenol and other “comfort” mones to help reinforce a false sense of safety and let them play out their extreme aggressions on the unsuspecting.
Sometimes there is communication of disinformation.
In a sense everyone wearing pheromones their body did not naturally produce is sending out disinformation. It is true that this could lull someone into a false sense of comfort. In the matter of agression, someone wearing a “social” pheromone just might stimulate agression in a predator. However, if the pheromone wearer really is a “badass” the predator just might be caught flatfooted because of his/her misjudgement of the situation and incorrect assessment of the risk.
The potential use of pheromones to enhance con jobs, enhance sales, assist negotiations, etc has been discussed extensively in various ethics, sales, and other threads. I don’t think there is any question that a pheromone that enhances rapport will also enhance a con job that requires a rapport between the con man and the victim. There is a grey line that exists somewhere between enhancement of a negotiation and a con job. I’m not sure exactly where that line is. Perhaps the lawyers are, but I doubt it. It is an interesting question though.
The use of artificial pheromones in a crime of aggression like robbery or rape has not yet been explored by the courts, at least to my knowledge. If the criminal objective is to lull a victim into a false sense of security it certainly seems that artificial pheromones could be used for that unsavory purpose.
Very interesting post GWTW!
I have to agree with all you said. However I think that some of the ‘comfort’ pheromones are more problematic than others for this kind of behaviour to occur from a ‘predator’. Also its context dependent.
I think TAK is one pheromone that definitely leads to a reduction in intimidation without (on it’s own!) adding much to ‘attractive characteristics’ - therefore high doses TAK worn alone may well be dangerous at times with regards to say being singled out by bullies.
However if you add something ‘nice’ , ‘sweet’ and ‘likable’ to a little TAK like P86, while you will still get ‘disrespect’ from some people, I think the chances of being actually harmed by someone would be reduced (as opposed to when not wearing mones). People may see the TAK/P86 wearer as ‘weak’ (unless he/she displays plenty of alpha traits) but they are unlikely to harm someone who is well liked and considered a non-threat by the group. The person might seem weak, but picking on him/her could mean retribution from the group.
Same thing with Alpha Androstenol. Like P86 it is universally attractive (by that I mean people generally like the person wearing Alpha Androstenol without other mones, even if they might see them in a fun ‘lightweight’ light). So (except for damaging the ego) I don’t think the problem would be nearly as bad socially as with the first mechanism you mention - where aggression against the AndrostEnone wearer is likely to be justified by other members of the group (aside from the ‘available woman’ herself, everyone has a need to protect something in such a situation).
On the other hand, in a non-social situation, say walking alone in a crime-infested suburb, things would be different. While the P86 and Alpha-Androstenol may the wearer seem more likeable, opportunistic criminals probably wouldn’t give a stuff. The mone signature may alert them to see the wearer as a ‘weak victim’. And the fact that there will not be (or perceived not to be) any kind of instantaneous retribution for their act, say a mugging, might make them more likely to just go for it!
Excellent points! In a group situation where someone is trying to establish dominance, submissive and “friendly” behaviors or pheromone signatures by a group member will temper the aggression. The presence of other group members will enhance this effect. It is required for cohesion of the group that members do not rip each other up without good reason.
The situation is different where the pheromone wearer is not a member of the group in question. Or is sought out as a resource. (Source of meat, money, drugs, sex, etc.) In this case the display of submissive behaviors or smells is unlikely to deter the aggression. It may mitigate the consequences by making it easier for the aggressor(s) to get what is desired without the extra trouble of inflicting harder beatings, etc. If the point of the aggression is to demonstrate to power to a group, a submissive display may even lead to greater aggression. For instance, in the case of a gang member who has to prove himself by beating someone up in front of his group. It is in such a person’s interest to pick a submissive individual outside of his group to beat up, as that poses the least risk.
There is an interesting scene in “Grand Torino” where gang members accost a young man and his date. The young man desperately attempts to establish himself as a submissive member of the group in order to deter aggression. He calls the gang members “bro” and uses other culturally inappropriate remarks to establish membership. It doesn’t work. Then Clint Eastwood comes up and informs the guy that they don’t want to be his bro, and Clint wouldn’t want to be his bro either. Finally Clint produces a big gun and the gang members leave.
An interesting scene and illustrative of some of the things we are discussing. Of course, that one is from a movie so we can take it with a grain of salt.
This is what might be expected if the pheromone signal says “unwilling or unable to defend oneself,” especially if friends were acustomed to a more dominant signature.
One of my motivations for starting this thread was concern that people in positions that require dominance, like prison guards, policemen, persons in d/s relationships, etc., were being given advice to use social pheromones with no mention of potential downsides to the dominant position. In certain conditions this could be dangerous or destructive to relationships. Social pheromones, like most things, have both positive and negative potential. This thread may serve as a reference to point out some of the potential downsides to people that need to be aware of them. To that end I may assemble some relevant user experiences here, like the one quoted above. (Two mechanisms by which pheromones increase the frequency of aggressive behavior)
Perhaps the below collection of posts may be of relevance here…
bjf (February 24, 2003):
" Scent of Eros – Too Nice? I wonder if some women are turned off with a guy with too much Androstenol…i.e. too nice, too wimpy, can walk all over him.
maybe i am wrong about it."
SonnyBlack (February 24, 2003):
“ive always wondered about this as well…**I think girls see you as such (wimpy, weak, not able to protect them) when you have too much Androstenol on. Ive worn Scent of Eros a couple of times and and I kinda noticed such reactions while doing so…**or maybe it was just that im used to having naturally high levels of none and when I added Androstenol it sorta freaked me out…”
bjf (February 24, 2003):
"the only time i have ever worn more Androstenol then none i thought a bunch of guys behind me were considering robbing me and a girl basically felt “wht can u do for me, you couldn’t take care of me” type-deal. Guys were nice, except for the guys who wanted to rob me
/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
. I am interested to see how women reacted to other guys with much higher Androstenol to none/Androsterone ratio"
Proteus (February 24, 2003):
"I tend to agree that with Scent of Eros you tend to be perceived as too nice - so especially when I hit the clubs if I use Scent of Eros I definitely use it with some -none, specifically JB#1.
But sometimes being perceived as " too nice " works great as you can move in on the ladies in kind of a stealth mode. Once I have her talking, which Scent of Eros is very good at doing, then I can use my skills to seduce her. If one approaches - Androstenol products from this perspective, you can in many ways be more successful with women than if you use -none products because they are already “comfortable” with you and if your seduction skills are good, then the rest is easy. I think of it this way - -none, when it works well, will have her ready to jump you without too much work, whereas - Androstenol may not induce this reaction, but from a percentage scale you can get to “talk” with a lot more women, and take it from there. So for the less skilled seductionists go with -none, but if you have skills, then I think - Androstenol products are much better for you. Just my two cents."
franki (February 24, 2003):
"…The only problem with Androstenol alone, IMO, is that when you are already a nice guy yourself, and you are only wearing Androstenol, you are missing something. Personally I ALWAYS feel I am missing something when I don’t put on the tiniest bit of none.
I really don’t believe in the theory that too much Androstenol (on its own) makes one too nice…"
jvkohl (February 25, 2003):
“Some people may be forgetting that -Androstenol has been shown to effect hormone levels (luteinizing hormone:LH, and follicle stimulating hormone) in women. This effect is always beneficial in other mammals; it is the typical response to pheromones from the opposite sex. An increase in LH will be followed by an increase in testosterone, which is very effective with regard to increasing libido, in both men and women. Scent of Eros may be too nice, but it also provides a nice push in the right direction: towards increased interest in sex.”
Shenandoah (April 27, 2006):
“…One does not want to over do the Scent of Eros. It could make you seem too friendly – that is a “push over,” a light weight, or a people pleaser…”
PheroBlog
Futurist (January 7, 2006):
“…Scent of Eros – This has a pheromone formula that gives off social effects, such as chattyness. Wear too much of it and you will seem overly wimpy. A good product, but doesn’t serve as a sexual attractant as it claims to. However, if you are a clint east wood type guy, a biker type, a body builder, etc, then this will likely take away some of the intimidation you produce in women and make you more attractive…”
Rob (September 26, 2006):
“NPA can generate negative effects… but you must take into account all pheremones do. The way I see it.. if androstenone gives an extra sex vibe, I’m sure I can put up with alittle bitchiness=) Then again things like too much -nols or comfort pheromones may have a happy or relaxing vibe.. yet at the same time they can also give a “weakness” and "my Psy hurts" vibe when used in excess.** Well I should know, because I like to OD when I first get any new pheremone.”
Rob (September 26, 2006):
“Any guy should not wear too much laughing feel good pheremones like Androstonel or TAA (IS). It’ll just end up turning you into some goofy smiling candyass. It may make you in some instances the life of the party, but really.. there is nothing sexy about a clown.”
alpha314 (August 27, 2007):
“…Yes RE Scent of Eros different courses for different horses i say it is good stuff, and an abundance can give a little bit of a wimpy attitude/perception derpending on ones dress, bio-rythms, dynamics and mood at the time of impact, also taking into consideration the personalitys of those whome may be influenced by its sublime properties…”
PheroQuirk (March 11, 2006):
“…Have yet to verify through experimentation. But sometimes you want people to be intimidated and thrilled by you, dammnit. I fear TAK might take that away…”
PheroQuirk (March 23, 2006):
“…I find too much TAK calms things down too much if meeting new people…”
Rob (June 22, 2006):
“…The absolute worst I’ve tried was WAGG!!! That has to be some sort of wimp pheremone or something. I may as well just sit there and “wagg my butt” like some loser, because that is exactly the type of hits it subconsciously gives…”
Rob (July 6, 2006):
“WAGG for some reason seems to be a wussy pheromone. I tried it on certain people and I noticed that girls were prone to treating you like a “nice guy” and you were more of a target for bully’s.”
My experiences with the sense of smell
nbully79 (August 1, 2007):
“Day report 08/01/07: 2 drops WAGG
Today applied 2 drops WAGG from the 4 ml bottle with dropper and covered with Geir. Asian girl in lab was cold and little bitchy. It’s very typical behavior from her whenever I wear Wagg. Gradually she warmed up but I think it does give some low status male vibe. Hey atleast its consistent!”
nbully79 (August 30, 2007):
“…V-5 doesn’t seem to bring the disrespectful reactions like WAGG does.”
nbully79 (February 17, 2008):
“…I am very surprised how WAGG lowers you on the social ladder a few notches and sometimes also Scent of Eros…”
Jonno101 (Feburary 17, 2008):
“I hear what you’re saying about Scent of Eros (haven’t tried WAGG)moving you down the social ladder.
I felt the same so ditched Scent of Eros as soon as my 1st Androtics order came in.
It wasn’t creating any attraction, IOIs just made me seem more insignificant. Almost invisible to people who’ve known me as well.
Nice reports. Keep em coming. I haven’t come across Athena b4)”
nbully79 (March 4, 2008):
“…Labmate didn’t abreact too badly to either Wagg or The Edge, she did start to be a little difficult on first exposure but soon became nicer. She has a huge problem whenever I wear Wagg or high doses of The Edge without A314. No over the top reactions yet but it’s a nice enhancement…”
sigma (April 14, 2006):
“What’s up pilot,
Asians typically benefit from wearing more none. I usually wear twice as much none as people typically wear. I haven’t felt the need to wear any more than 3 drops (though I usually wear 2) of A314, so I don’t think there’s too much variability on ethnicity as far as A314. One thing I have noticed, however, is that I VERY easily stumble into the negative reactions with the softer products. I’m still famiarizing myself with the products here so I couldn’t offer much in regards to what’s used here, but I’ve had experiences with Androstadienone and WAGG where people around me grew highly condescending.
Nowadays I usually use these products in highly intimate or personal situations only, or when off-set with a none heavy product.”
sigma (June 11, 2006):
“…I noticed the same with WAGG, so I eventually ditched it. I had high hopes when I got WAGG based on the feedback that people gave it on LS, but in my case it had a pretty profound anti-sexual effect…to the extent of creating condescension from others. This all went away with low doses of WAGG, however at those doses I saw no beneficial effects either…”
sigma (August 22, 2006):
“…In my case WAGG created nothing but negative effects, however the experience taught me to lay low with the comfort pheromones, and to focus more on social and aggressive pheromones…”
sigma (May 14, 2007):
“**WAGG is definitely a product that seems to soften a person’s image…for better or for worse. It has actually elicited some condescension in people in my case…**this is easily tempered with something more aggressive, but it became pointless for me to ever use it, as there were no real beneficial effects for me…only negative ones that I needed to mitigate with other pheromones. I think the condescension came with mixes that incorporated a lot of androstadienone…its been a while since I’ve used it…”
examine (March 14, 2007):
“… P101 ] does smell different [to TAA]. i meant the vibe [is similar to that of TAA]. it sorta has a happy vibe, shiny vibe–but its not too giggly like alpha Androstenol. i noticed at the bar, the waitress whom is an alpha female, never actually got into a conversation with me. just “hey you, whats up” this time..she gave me a drink, then we chatted, then, i asked if she had a custom drink..she made it…i went back to playing pool. then she came over to ask me about the drink. i said something like “whos at the bar?” she replied, “ah its dead and im bored”
i also asked her if she wanted to play, which she agreed, but then she had customers.
btw. i wore P84 2-3 hours prior. i noticed P84 stuck around for awhile.
the spray (101) does not command respect, and it creates a very very friendly vibe to others. i can see how 101 would be great for lonewolves, however, authority figures (boss) would see you as weak. i got picked on by my boss. and i mean she really drilled me. im usually very sharp tongue and defensive, but i just kept silent…which felt a bit emotional. that is very unlike me.”
Eslite119 (March 29, 2008):
“…EST:
In general, I believe EST tends to create that protect vibe. In other words, people exposed to EST get a sense that they need to “protect” the wearer of this pheromone. This tends to create a different type of respect (in contrast to Androsterone), where people exposed to it let you “have it your way.” However, this type of vibe or the protect vibe is not always good IMHO as it leads some people to undermine you in the process. I’m sure I confused some readers at this point, so let me give you my most recent example.
EST at Poker night:
Dosage: 4 sprays of EST (200mcg) all applied to hair. Applied 3 hours before the event.
Last weekend, I was to get together with some people that I’ve known since high school. Haven’t seen them since then, but we sort of had a reunion. I’ve worn pheros couple times to Poker games, and some of the pheros used were P74 and >A314. By no means I used pheros to swindle money from others, but just happened to had the old applications on and ran into a poker game by coincidence. This time was different. I applied EST mainly to test it out to see what happens and also to confirm some of my theories on this phero.
At the table, there were some people that I was not familiar with and we had 10 total; 4 females and 6 males including myself. Third hand, flipped my card and I saw pocket kings. Good so far. 7 out of 10 folded and the flop reveals 2 kings and 1 Jack. At this point I know I won, so I observe the other two players and see their reactions. One folds and other one stays and bets. I raise and he calls. Turn reveals a card, but I really don’t remember what it was (does it matter?). My opponent, who had more chips than I, calls whatever I had left, so I call. Crowd goes wild after seeing my cards, and I sweep the table.
A female player next to me, doesn’t compliment me, but rather teaches me as to how to play poker (you should’ve done this, that, blah blah blah). I kinda ignore her. On the 7th or the 8th hand (sorry can’t remember), I get a full house on the river and once again I was up against only one player (person I know well). This opponent was telling me to fold rather than enticing me to go all in. He’s saying that he didn’t want me to lose money and so forth, but he was expressing it in a way that made me believe that he meant it. Eventually he goes all in and I call. He had 3 of a kind and I sweep the table again.
At this point I was the chip leader. A female player, again, teaches me as to how I should play poker. This time I got annoyed and some people on the table caught on. The table split into two when debating. One part was saying, “leave _____ alone he’s trying to have a good time,” while the rest was saying, “I don’t want ____ to lose money.” Ummmm excuse me? A lot went through my mind and ultimately ruined my mood to continue on. I won more hands afterwards, but I was thrown off course and just couldn’t concentrate. After the little debate, I got a sense that I really didn’t belong there; people seemed to act as if they were playing amongst 9 adults and 1 high school student. Maybe I’m over analyzing, but I didn’t like the vibe I got. But then again the other 9 played amongst themselves before and this was my first time joining their group.
I wanted to quit, but since this was a first time playing with this crowd, I decided not to cash out my winnings. I steadily and purposefully (believe it or not) lost the subsequent hands.
Very different experience compared to my previous poker games. When wearing P74 and especially >A314, I got the respect. People took me seriously and characterized me as a disciplined player. Once again, EST tends to create that “protect” vibe. I think the female player next to me was giving me advices, regardless of my winnings, strictly out of concern as did some other players. However, she didn’t seem to realize that she was undermining me in the process. When she was commenting as to “should you be doing this? or that?” she was completely forgetting the fact that 1) it was my money that was at risk and 2) I can make decisions of my own. It was as if the entire table was like mommy and daddy trying to tell the kid how to spend his allowance.
Conclusion: EST is not the type of phero that I’m looking for. However, I think female users will benefit much more if they use it.”