Evolutionary psychology: -Rone men and -None Men

[MHarris]

In case anybody here doesn’t know, Evolutionary Psychology PERFECTLY, and I mean PERFECTLY… outlines the rone and none relationship.

They just don’t use rone and none by name. I doubt most evolutionary psychologists have ever heard of these two pheromones, despite the fact that I made the connection almost immediately… “that’s a rone man they’re talking about!” and “that’s a none man they’re talking about!”.

Evolutionary psychology really does describe two types of men, one who is basically higher in -rone output, and the other higher in -none output. Of course, there’s other pheromones that make a difference, but I’m talking about a predominant signature here, sort of the inverse of the 80/20 rule here.

You get a good text on evolutionary psychology and you’ll learn far more about pheromones than you ever will reading the official pheromone researchers, who tend to be intellectually incestuous.

It’s the cross application of ideas, theories and facts of other fields that leeds to genius. Isn’t doesn’t. This is as true in information and research as it is in genetic pools. Outbreeding rules, and inbreeding sucks

Outbreed!
Michael

[MHarris]

There’s nobody here yet. I may as well chat with myself a little.

The two men are:

the wise, competent, long lived, nurturing, money-making fatherly type

and

the not so wise, often unreliable and short lived, not so caring, wild child “bad boy” type

The second, of course, often describes a young man, as well. Boys will be boys, and the more wreckless ones seldom have the chance to become men. Not that they all kill themselves off with wreckless behaviour - some merely grow physically, and not mentally.

For an easy pop culture example, think “Job” in the series “Arrested Development”, although he’s a little more of a loser scumbag than a full fledged Fonz or Colin Farrell badboy. Not good enough to be a full fledged “ahole”. Probably the kid who dreamed of being a jock, but was never “good enough”.

Now back to science (or something more scientific, anyway)…

According to David Buss’ research, women historically settle down with the nurturer, and should she cheat… cheat with the “bad boy” when she’s most receptive, when she’s ovulating… and then have the nurturer raise the child as his own.

If you can really map this out in your head, it becomes apparent.

THAT’S why -none mostly gets women hot and bothered when they’re ovulating, then generally repulses them when they’re not (so they won’t break it off with the nurterer).

THAT’s why younger men have higher -none output, and older men generally have higher -rone output (so the 30 something child rearing women will cheat with the new generation of late teen/early 20s men - spreads the genes further)

If you can remove your emotions from the scenario for a moment, you can see that this isn’t all bad. It does keep a “wild card” in the genetic mix.

And it’s not to say that some of the offspring won’t be the nurturers.

Now as soon as you put your emotions back in, you’ll instantly feel the downside.

If you’re the “good guy” you get to raise, unbenknowst to you, some bastard child born of the seed of some guy who had a brief, torrid affair full of hot, torrid, rollicking, insanely delicious bad boy sex with your wife!

You feel the downside because … subjectively, it sucks!

[Aurelie]

I can grasp this in theory. More than that even, I can see how that can happen. Women getting bored with their reasonable, nurturing spouse and choosing a “bad boy” to have a fling with. Not that I approve of it, to the contrary. I’m just saying I can see why some women would do that.

BUT! I really don’t believe they will go as far as having offspring with the “bad boy” and then have the “nurturer” raise the child as his own. This might have happened in the Middle Ages, but nowadays they have contraceptives. From a psychological point of view I cannot even remotely imagine living such a lie day in day out with my spouse! I have never met a woman who was in that situation either.

[MHarris]

@Aurelie

I can grasp this in theory. More than that even, I can see how that can happen. Women getting bored with their reasonable, nurturing spouse and choosing a “bad boy” to have a fling with. Not that I approve of it, to the contrary. I’m just saying I can see why some women would do that.

While everything boils down to our conscious decisions… our minds being given the “final say”… it does seem that we have very STRONG impulses from our genes, and our 7 trillion + cells that express those genes. One conscious mind vs. 7 trillion cells often singing in harmony for food, sex and other basic things. It can be tough to override for some, I imagine.

Not me, though, I’m tough. My brain cells kick the ass of my bodily urges cells. I can’t say I’ve EVER lost control, even once in my life.

@Aurelie

BUT! I really don’t believe they will go as far as having offspring with the “bad boy” and then have the “nurturer” raise the child as his own. This might have happened in the Middle Ages, but nowadays they have contraceptives.

That’s the beauty of evolutionary psychology.

Evolutionary psychologist is based on what is, rather than what people say. It’s very subterfuge, very low BS. It’s reality + psychology, and is probably the one of the first forms of psychology that’s actually kind of useful since it has such a strong basis in fact.

In fact, in my experiences, I never remember any woman asking for me to wear protection in extremely heated situations where there was enormous sexual chemistry.

If my brain wasn’t so good at ruining “heat in the moment” events for me, I’m certain they would’ve worked out different than they did.

I’m positive, from those experiences, that MANY (not all, just many) normal men and have some pretty intense, protection free sex when there’s a high -none man and an ovulating, on the prowl woman.

@Aurelie

From a psychological point of view I cannot even remotely imagine living such a lie day in day out with my spouse! I have never met a woman who was in that situation either.

Really??

Plenty of my female friends admit to having protection free sex with men they absolutely hate the next day.

This is talked about in David Buss’ work, and seems to be the typical high -none male / ovulating female interaction.

High -none guys, you get a mad rush, a mad thrill from, you do things with them that are extremely heated… very in the moment… and potentially irresponsible…

and then you often hate them and maybe even hate yourself a little, the next day. Typical pattern.

You see this a lot in popular culture, too. TV shows and movies. Seems to be a universal experience, it’s just that David Buss took the time to put more didatic research into it, and write it out explicitly.

[MHarris]

Strategies of Human Mating by David Buss:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/046500802X

To me, this and some of the other texts of Evolutionary Psychology has everything the pheromone books are missing. David Buss is the Lucy of pheromones, the Missing Link.

[Futurist]

I agree… the challenge with this type of info is how useful is it, practically speaking, when using pheromones on a day in and day in basis.

Too much -none still repulses most. Perhaps we can unconsiously smell cycles, but it’s not as if women where a sign.

At the same time, if you go heavy on the rone, you suddenly become less exciting but then again, attractive in a subtler way.

Both have their positives and negatives. I’ve always been at a loss as to how to apply it. I think LOOKING like a bad boy is probably most advantageous, for a number of different reasons (easier to get best of both worlds).

[MHarris]

I know what you mean. Rone by itself has some serious issues.

I tried more closely to formulate the new A314 to the James Bond character (I’m sure it was in the back of my mind previously, too).

The experimental mix that ended up being A314, the one that “made it” in the tests, was based along the lines of something like a transmogrification of 80/20 principle… except the 80% part really does do something. The 20% wouldn’t exist as effectively without the 80%.

Nonetheless, that 80% part is safe, perhaps too safe. That’s where the other 20% comes in to play, and IMHO, is essential.

I would never use rone completely alone. It has some serious downsides. I’ve never liked the effects I’ve gotten from wearing rone alone.

I don’t think there’s a modern equivalent to James Bond, btw, which is really too bad. Many younger no idea what the heck I mean.

Everything now is “Metrosexuals”, which I take to mean something akin to a Boy George that likes girls? In fact, I just saw a magazine, I think Details… that proclaimed the DEATH of the Alpha Male, and why this is good thing.

Doesn’t matter, though, I think the James Bond type aura will always continue to succeed, much beyond any fad. It’s almost an archetypical ideal, an image of permanent, sustained value.

When you strip Bond down to his essentials, his nickers… all you’ve got is someone who’s stable, competent and stylish. That comes along with a dash of excitement, and the ability to get even more exciting and down and dirty at a moment’s notice.

If you cross images - have the image of a bad boy, and the pheromonal image of someone competent, that may work. Sometimes “completeness” or playing the two sides is important. On the other side of the coin, sometimes congruency is very important.

With androstenone, for instance, I’d worry about the person who likes like a pipsqueek, maybe “Clark Kent” (superman was wussyboy), and the big muscle, strength & aggression aura that -none gives you. They’re going to invite some very unfavorable aggression.

With -none, you really have to match the part with your dress and behavior or you could be LITERALLY asking for trouble.

With a mostly -rone mix, not sure it matters so much.

In fact, what I like most about A314 is that I can dress down, and still be treated like I dressed up. Taken very seriously, given respect, maybe even more respect than I deserve. Still deferred to (the “social right of way”, letting me go first). Still treated, perhaps, like I was 10-20 olders than I am, rich than I am, and more important than I am.

[Futurist]

Regarding conguency, I’m not sure if you’ve seen studies that basically said attractive men got more benefit from synthetic mones than average guys. At the same time, with women, I believe smell is less beneficial for attractive women, based on something I read.

Both make sense, it’s really all logical. Attractive women are already attractive and won’t invoke as great of a percentage change in attraction caused in the target as an average gal. I believe this study may not have involved synthetics, though.

As far as guys go, you smell good, she likes how you look, she’s going to be attracted. Smell good, not her type lookswise, she’s not necessarily going to get over that.

Regarding completeness, I think the best advice for someone starting from pheromones from scratch is to pick pheromones opposite of their natural persona/vibe. Experiment, and “work your way down” meaning, start shifting the balance of your mix toward pheromones that already signal what you signal. Just my thoughts.

[MHarris]

Yes, that’s an interesting study.

Of course, they haven’t studied every pheromone in the same context. I don’t have it in front of me, so I don’t know which ones they used, but it’s still very interesting.

It’s also peculiar that women tend to wear what’s basically a ‘chatty’ pheromone. Women tend to be friendlier and more open to chatting in the first place… their vibe is basically very adrostenol-like in the first place.

If anything, you’d think the effects of androstenol would help the MORE attractive women. The women that make men so tongue tied, that it’s the rare man that will speak with them.

I basically agree with your completeness observations, except when it comes to androstenone. I really think you need to match that with your attitude, clothing, etc., or you’re in for trouble.

I’d rather see a biker wearing high levels of -none, than a computer nerd. I think the computer nerd would be far better off using microdoses of -none, at least until their set of social behaviors could be expanded.

Androstenone, I think, has to “make sense” to those around you in the context of who you appear to be. More than most of the other pheromones.

[Futurist]

Androstenone is the tricky one, yet it’s basically what drives a lot of attraction in phero mixes. It appears to me, because of this, and the ease of use of nol, that it’s why women seem to have higher success rates with synethetics then men.

Regarding androstenone though, I’m anything but intimidating. I still draw respect and friendliness from men though, generally.

When I wear too much -none, I still get signs of respect from men, sometimes them supplicating. Very rarely have I had -none problems with men in terms of them getting agitated, except with some bouncers. But if anything, -none has made me the aggressive one, when I should be watching myself considering I’d probably get my ass kicked.

I’m just not sure the visual and the automatic fear factor -none produces always have to match (sometimes so quick, automatic, removed from logic) but that’s just in my own experiences.

I still haven’t figured out my natural none product. PI doesn’t work for me well, AE either (too much none?) yet my more successful mixes in terms of ridiculous sort of attraction usually involve npa, using none levels that might match the ae or pi application.

[MHarris]

Drives a lot of specific attraction - sexual. Very direct, sexual attraction.

The way androstenone can make senior women bobble around unformfortably can be downright disturbing, depending on their style of bobbling!

There’s lots of ways to be sexual as a “side-effect” (in reality, there are no side effects, just effects - “side” and “primary” are more of a function of the observer).

That’s why rone can be sexual.

Heck, dinner can be sexual for many. Tending to a lady’s survival and making it pleasant in the process can bring out some very strong impulses. That’s part of the reason why someone to dinner why this is staple of all dates, and business interactions.

-None is almost the equivolent of a woman stuffinf their bra… it’s like you’re putting socks in your muscles, and in the front pocket of your pants.

Yes, if -none makes some people who wear it aggressive. This often works out to be a good thing. When it makes the meek fierce, they are congruent.

I always wear -none on my neck/chest, or even a little on my face for this effect. I don’t want it on my wrists so much, where it’ll be exposed widely to everyone but me.

PI… what’s the mcg per drop on that? If I can remember correctly it’s way too high. When I’ve played with that in the past, I didn’t like the effects. It’s an instant-OD product, which is not a good thing with androstenone.

You can just use some Turn Up the Heat M1 (Mix 1). We have 5mcg per spray. Even that will too much for some, though, I realize. Nonetheless, it’s massively useful having dosed products. I think we also have Pure None (“black label” none), Raw Power (raw, unscented -none), Dirty (-none plus sex/social proof) and some other primarily -none based products in prerelease… all dosed.

If NPA worked well with my body chemistry, that would be the only product I’d actively use outside of my own. There’s one effect it produces that I really like, but it tends to make me overly aggressive, and produce positive effects only crowds I’m not looking to affect. I’ve actually recommended it to others, especially 50 and up. I think they should produce more products.

Oops - I just misspoke. I really love Pheros, and it’s completely unique. I wish it’s creator would make more products, as well. Then again, it’s really more like a work of art, than a product! After I get this company kicking faster after some dramatic internal changes, I’d love to commission something from him (if he does that).

Dodd, too, I’d love to commission him. The downside is that he may have too much money from the sales of Kiotech to care.

How much -none are you using in your mixes? Do you even know?

[Futurist]

I believe one drop of PI -none is .025mg. Two dabs of NPA is .024 none plus secret ingredient roughly, I believe.

I’ve had reactions from NPA or TE like you wouldn’t believe but due to an inconsistent delivery method, it’s hard to hit that perfect dosage window that ends up working. Dispersal issues come into play too into getting into that zone.

I like Androtics approach becuse of the consistency with regard to delivery.

None actually makes me anti-social and has a bad effect on me, btw. I’m positive the attraction has nothing to do with how I look or the body language I give off, it’s basically tapping into something automatic that pheromones can cause on a biochemical level. But it’s hard to hit that point. None (and the secret ingredient) is particuarly precise, and mastering it is elusive.

I think it’d be great if you could work with Lacroy, as their phero content is special. Unfortunately, I’m not sure there existing relationship with others would allow that. Perhaps there’s a way though.

[MHarris]

@Futurist

I believe one drop of PI -none is .025mg. Two dabs of NPA is .024 none plus secret ingredient roughly, I believe..

I thought PI was even higher than that?

When I tried PI in the past, I never had good effects. Worse, their suggestions in their copy to use such a high concentration androstenone product at work I think is, at best, irresponsible.

If it is actually 25mcg per drop, however, I can see how it’d be perfect for a man in his 70s, who has almost no pheromone output of his own.

@Futurist

I’ve had reactions from NPA or TE like you wouldn’t believe but due to an inconsistent delivery method, it’s hard to hit that perfect dosage window that ends up working. Dispersal issues come into play too into getting into that zone.

I like Androtics approach becuse of the consistency with regard to delivery.

None actually makes me anti-social and has a bad effect on me, btw. I’m positive the attraction has nothing to do with how I look or the body language I give off, it’s basically tapping into something automatic that pheromones can cause on a biochemical level. But it’s hard to hit that point. None (and the secret ingredient) is particuarly precise, and mastering it is elusive.

TE/NPA definitely has something interesting going on.

Thanks for your nice comments, btw.

If you’ve never heard – that was a major reason behind founding Androtics. I had a pheromone hobby which was a rapidly becoming an annoyance, because nobody cared about dosing or mixability issues, or a lot of practical “little things”.

Hobbies should be fun and exciting, not annoying.

I think it’s ludicrous that we basically “invented” dosed pheromes in the commercial market, came out with the first doses products. What a stupid thing to have to “invent” (or apply, really)! Seriously…

Makes me wonder how passionate some other formulators are about using their own products. Do you think most pheromone products creators even use their own products? If they don’t, why/how did they make them? Just another job?

I don’t like that system.

On the other hand, I think anybody who’s passionate about something, and makes products that they themselves can use and enjoy, ends up making some of the better products on the market.

Personally, I’m still not completely satisfied with what I can offer myself, but I’m getting there… and the process will help the market. The unfortunate side effect, though, is that I’m constantly overexposed to pheromones, so it’s tough to test these things out myself sometimes.

@Futurist

I think it’d be great if you could work with Lacroy, as their phero content is special. Unfortunately, I’m not sure there existing relationship with others would allow that. Perhaps there’s a way though.

I wouldn’t mind working with Daryn, George Dodd, or Winifred Cutler. Anybody who does (or did) good work, I’ll work with.

We all work together, anyway, whether we talk to each other or not. Honest competition is a form of cooperation, after all.

[Futurist]

@MHarris

I thought PI was even higher than that?

When I tried PI in the past, I never had good effects. Worse, their suggestions in their copy to use such a high concentration androstenone product at work I think is, at best, irresponsible.

If it is actually 25mcg per drop, however, I can see how it’d be perfect for a man in his 70s, who has almost no pheromone output of his own.

Very irresponsible. These are people’s lives we’re talking about.

I’ve never had good effects myself.

If you’ve never heard – that was a major reason behind founding Androtics. I had a pheromone hobby which was a rapidly becoming an annoyance, because nobody cared about dosing or mixability issues, or a lot of practical “little things”.

Hobbies should be fun and exciting, not annoying.

I think it’s ludicrous that we basically “invented” dosed pheromes in the commercial market, came out with the first doses products. What a stupid thing to have to “invent” (or apply, really)! Seriously…

Makes me wonder how passionate some other formulators are about using their own products. Do you think most pheromone products creators even use their own products? If they don’t, why/how did they make them? Just another job?

As Jasmin knows, I too have had plenty of complaints about the suppliers out there. It’s a joke in some respects how little the formulators use this stuff or even know. I’ve heard some formulators tell me about their process of determining their ratios and it amounts to a few nights at a bar. And, yes, many of the major players don’t use their own products, or worse off, try other products. THe formulor of one best seller hasn’t even ever tried none.

Then, when you get instant ODs on the default delivery method, it just shows how much they care. Many of the times not even instructions or warnings.

I wouldn’t mind working with Daryn, George Dodd, or Winifred Cutler. Anybody who does (or did) good work, I’ll work with.

Seems like it’s a side thing for Lacroy, but they have something great already, that needs to be completed with pheromones you have.

[nadero]

@MHarris

If it is actually 25mcg per drop, however, I can see how it’d be perfect for a man in his 70s, who has almost no pheromone output of his own.

I am 42 years and I would like to have a more alpha aurea, i’m such tipe of man with more Rone than none.

You said 25mcg is too much for young men… I usually place 50% of `mones on my clothes and 50% on my skin. I have had sometimes problems with other men (friends of mine) I think because I had too much nones (but fine with women).

What you think should be the maximum dose of NONE for me ? (I am only concerned with nones due to I have understood NOL and A1 has not risk of overdose; I always do mix A1 with a314 or npa or another formulation with nones)

[MHarris]

@Futurist

Very irresponsible. These are people’s lives we’re talking about.

I’ve never had good effects myself.

As Jasmin knows, I too have had plenty of complaints about the suppliers out there. It’s a joke in some respects how little the formulators use this stuff or even know. I’ve heard some formulators tell me about their process of determining their ratios and it amounts to a few nights at a bar. And, yes, many of the major players don’t use their own products, or worse off, try other products. THe formulor of one best seller hasn’t even ever tried none.

Then, when you get instant ODs on the default delivery method, it just shows how much they care. Many of the times not even instructions or warnings.

Seems like it’s a side thing for Lacroy, but they have something great already, that needs to be completed with pheromones you have.

Yeah, it is very irresponsible, when it comes to -none. At least give the proper instructions and/or ad copy.

I’m actually toying labeling one of my high -none mixes “Instant Jerk”, because you know what? That’s exactly what you become, and the vibe you give off when you use it.

Why not just be honest? Steer people to want they want. It hit me that, hey… some guys would die to a give off a jerk vibe, if they’ve lived their entire life as a nice guy. Not so appealing to me, but hey…

I’ve been out of the loop for awhile, too busy… but yes, some of the formulation leaves a lot to be desired. I constantly make new mixes for my first and primary guinea pig - myself. But I also put out mixes in groups, too.

I don’t like doing complex mixes anymore. I really want to put the tools out there for people to make their own complex mixes.

It’s you’re coated in blue paint, I’m coaed in yellow paint, and for a nice night out, we want to be painted red. Well, we both have to add very different colors to make red, don’t we?

[MHarris]

@nadero

I am 42 years and I would like to have a more alpha aurea, i’m such tipe of man with more Rone than none.

You said 25mcg is too much for young men… I usually place 50% of `mones on my clothes and 50% on my skin. I have had sometimes problems with other men (friends of mine) I think because I had too much nones (but fine with women).

What you think should be the maximum dose of NONE for me ? (I am only concerned with nones due to I have understood NOL and A1 has not risk of overdose; I always do mix A1 with a314 or npa or another formulation with nones)

Even 1mcg of none can make a difference. It depends on what you need, and the kind of people you’re trying to impact.

-None will cause fighting or aversion amongst your male friends. That’s the downside you’re going to have to live with if you like raw sexual effets, although A314 and androstadienone do indeed ameliorate that effect.

Max dose is around 20.

Just trying different amounts every day, everything from 1 to 20.

Ideal daily dose for me is 3-6mcg. Ideal night club dose, 5-20, it really depends. If I already feel very “edgy” or that, or if I’ve been moody, I go with less. If I’m been very peaceful, and I want to hit a bar, I’ll do 10 to 20, and I’ll apply mostly to my chest, so it affects me, too.

[nadero]

@MHarris

Max dose is around 20.

Just trying different amounts every day, everything from 1 to 20.

Ideal daily dose for me is 3-6mcg. Ideal night club dose, 5-20

What do you think about putting mones on clothes? I have understood that -mones on clothes should be less volatile, so dosage should be greater than on skin.

As I usually apply 50% of -mones on my clothes, and the other 50% on my chest and behind ears, I suppose I could use more than 20mcg of none, maybe max 30mcg of none.

[MHarris]

@nadero

What do you think about putting mones on clothes? I have understood that -mones on clothes should be less volatile, so dosage should be greater than on skin.

As I usually apply 50% of -mones on my clothes, and the other 50% on my chest and behind ears, I suppose I could use more than 20mcg of none, maybe max 30mcg of none.

I don’t like pheromones on clothes very much, because they’re hard to remove from fibers, and, yes, there’s volatility issues.

Pheromones on clothes are kind of like cologne on clothes.

Old girlfriends will often keep one of your tshirts that smells like your bodily sweat or your cologne, whether they tell you or not. If a t-shirt goes missing, connect the dots. Think about it. Ex-girlfriends are the #1 “t-shirt” faeries.

Thing is, does that t-shirt really diffuse? The girl can mostly smell it when she snuggles with it very close to her, which is the purpose she keeps it for. As a warm reminder of you, the equivolent of a grown up’s teddy bear or a comforting pillow between her legs.

Spray some cologne onto a t-shirt, and experiment with how well it diffuses.

Keep in mind that commercial cologne houses that diffusion down to a science (and yet they still don’t diffuse really well from clothing). I know a little bit you of that science now, but you really get NONE of that diffusion science going for you when you use unscented pheromones.

In terms of fragrance science, pheromone molecules are HEAVY, with the molecular weight of other base notes.

When I want to minimize conversions and get a clothing-like effect, I apply to the hair on my head. I like spraying androstenol onto my hair. The heat from my head rises up, and pushes the pheromone out.

Women naturally use their hair to flick pheromones at you. A typical thing women do when they’re attracted to you is the “hair flip”. That’s fairly well known.

What’s not as well known, is that the nape of the neck - an eroticized part of the body in many cultures (especially Japan) - actually puts emits many pheromones. So the scientific reason women are flipping ther hair at you is to send you put you downstream to a strong, personal gust of their pheromones.

I like the hair, and you can wash the hair. Products like Nioxin and other polysorbate based hair cleaners are good at removing pheromonal content, allowing you to “start from scratch”.

I’m not saying that clothing application is bad, it just has it’s issues.

Like it or not, we’re still at the very beginning of pheromone technology. It’s very much the realm of Lewis & Clark. We’re like pheromone adventurers.

With that “pioneering” spirit in mind, applying to your clothing is much more commital than I personally prefer. When I have my way about it, I like to try new mixes each day, sometimes several times a day. I wouldn’t be able to do that with clothing.

…

On another note entirely, why do you suppose you could increase to 30mcg none? Because of the lower diffusion on clothing?

That may be true.

One positive to the lower diffusion of clothing. Provided that you don’t have excess buildup, the pheromone source will be truly ‘localized’. If you OD on the skin or hair, the pheromones tend to go everywhere, in part because of your body heat. With those ODs, the brain has trouble deciding who’s emiting. ODs on a non-diffusive substance would be quite localized and readily ‘located’.

[josef]

even though i’ve been using pheromone products for about 5 years now, i’ve only just recently realized the experimental possibilities/potential.

i wanted to do a clothing test, so about three weeks ago i took a hooded sweatshirt that i wear to the gym and a bottle containing a mix of 5 parts none 1 part rone and tipped the bottle directly onto the sweatshirt, once at each shoulder. didn’t use a finger to dab or a sprayer, just tipped the bottle directly onto the fabric and immediately removed.

none only gives off a “lab” smell to me, can’t detect the cat piss smell that others get, but 3 weeks later i still can detect the none/rone mix.

if i tried wearing that sweatshirt on the same day i used something like NPA on my chest/ears/wrists etc i can only imagine an OD as a result.

this forum appears to still be in its infancy, but seems to have more relevant information per post than others i have seen.